Lots of electrical issues, please help

LuckyLeprechaun

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I just got my first bike, a '76, about a month ago, and have been tinkering with it to try to get it ready to ride in spring. I tried to kick-start it one day, and seemingly ran into a lot of electrical issues and couldn't get it started. I'm going to post all the information I can provide, sorry if it's too much or muddies the waters as to the non-start issue, because we could always be dealing with multiple issues. I'm definitely no wiring expert, so excuse me if what I write doesn't make complete sense or I have to ask for clarifications

1. As far as I could tell, kicking it over with a full battery, I had no spark(at least for the right hand cylinder)

2. I was told that the electric starter didn't work, which I didn't really care about, and pressing the button, sure enough, nothing happened. However, if I jump direct power to the main starter wire on the starter relay the starter motor makes noise, but doesn't engage(doesn't turn the engine over). I also tested the relay itself, and I believe that it is in working order. Also, if I use a voltmeter and put one prong on the solder that holds the blue/white wire on the back of the starter button and the other prong on the solder that holds the blue/white wire to the relay, it says I have continuity even with the button not pressed.

3. I have headlight, taillight, gauge lights, high beam, and high beam indicator. I don't have brake light, turn signals, neutral indicator, stop lamp indicator, or horn. The horn does work with direct power, but not by pressing the button.

4. I took apart, cleaned, and tested the kill switch, and it seems to be working.

5. If anyone has a nice full wiring diagram, that would also be great, i'm working off of one for a '75, but at least one thing is different, the ignition coil wire colors, so who knows what else could be different.

That's all I can think of for now, I tested continuity and power on a bunch of things today, but it's been kind of mind-numbing and I can't really think right now. Like I mentioned before, this is my first bike and I am by no means an electrician, so I don't really know how things are connected together or what the readings are supposed to be, so I could be missing something blatantly obvious. Any help would be really appreciated right now, it's starting to drive me crazy.


**Edit** I can't believe I didn't mention this earlier, but being so brain-dead yesterday it completely slipped my mind. Between the coils and the neck there is a 6-plug female connector not hooked up to anything. It has a white end that looks like it would plug into another white plastic end. I have looked all over and not seen anything that it obviously mates to. It is set up like so:

O - White O - Red
O - Yellow O - Green
O - Black O - Blue
 
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Here's a link to some, if not all wiring diagrams.....from the 'Tech' section.
http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61
For laughs, see if there's continuity from the handlebars to ground....shoot for the battery ground, then try the frame. I believe the starter button grounds to the bars to complete the starters circuit......might be the same with the horn too. Hey, little steps.
 
I'm actually using one of the wire diagrams posted by 650Skull, but now that im a little more familiar with my bikes wiring I do see some different ones that might also be useful, so thank you for having me look at those again.

I just checked and from what I can tell I do have continuity from the handlebars to the battery ground cable(my battery is out right now), and from the handlebars to the frame.
 
Regarding your item 3. "I have headlight, taillight, gauge lights, high beam, and high beam indicator. I don't have brake light, turn signals, neutral indicator, stop lamp indicator, or horn. The horn does work with direct power, but not by pressing the button." Check your fuses and the connections to the fuses as this strikes me as all the things that would be controlled by a single fuse.
Do bear in mind that with bikes of this age it's reasonably likely that someone will have repaired bits of the wiring loom in the past and it's equally possible that they may have changed bits so it might not be exactly as the diagram shows.
 
That is a good point to keep in mind, so far it looks like most everything is matching up to original though.

If I understand correctly, a '76 only has one fuse, and that's a 20A(that's what's in mine anyway) between the battery and the key switch, and it appears to be good.

I thought about loose/open connections, but they are hard to check because the plastic that protects them has gotten very yellow with age and they are no longer transparent.


P.S. Merry Christmas everyone!
 
my mind would stall when i was learning to understand my wiring so i would have to take a break, sometimes i left it for a week but when i came back to it next it, things were easier to understand......till the next stall>

Your brown, (Power), wire goes from the ignition to the horn, both front and rear brake switches, flasher relay and neutral indicator light. Check to make sure you have the power on that line.
Start with one color and continuity test it to all connections, take them apart and clean then test and reassemble and so on.

Don't know what the 6 pin with those wire's is, the only white wires i know, should be from the alternator and there should be 3 in that pin.

Mind you, you haven't given us any info on what type of bike you have. chopper original ???????
 
I would like to test the continuity of each wire, but motorcycle wiring diagrams are difficult for me to read/understand, so I don't know where the wires go in what order, just all the places they do go to.

Thank you very much for telling me how the brown wire runs, it has been one of the wires I have had my eye on as the potential culprit for a while, but didn't know where to start or end with testing it.

If bike wiring has similarities to auto wiring, I suppose it's possible that two 3-pin connectors connect to this one 6-pin connector and make a 2 into 1 type system. I still haven't seen any loose male connectors though that would plug into it.

I appologize for not stating clearly what i'm working with. As far as I know/can tell it's a 1976 XS650c in stock form. Looking at it, I haven't seen any connections that seemed suspicious, no wires suddenly changing colors, everything seems pretty well original from what I can tell.
 
gets easier each time you look at it. Concentrate on one color at a time. Start with the easy ones like the Indicators. left is chocolate, Ch and right Dark green Dg. Br brown going through the brake switches goes to y yellow, All power
 
Have you looked inside the headlight bucket at all the wiring connections? Have you followed the wiring from the left switch to see if its connected?
 
Don't know if it's still available but Haynes did a good-and easy to understand- Motorcycle Electrics manual, I learnt alot of what I know about bike and car electrics from it :)
 
So I got a chance to talk to my Uncle today, who I got the bike from:

1. He says I had the key switch in the wrong position to start it, I had it turned all the way to the right instead of the middle setting.

2. The white, six plug connector is for a fairing

3. He confirmed that the starter motor works, but doesn't engage, and still doesn't work at the press of the button. Would be nice to get the electric start to work, so if anyone has thoughts about this that would be great.


650skull: It does get somewhat easier, but it's still confusing not being able to see the linear path the wires take.

hmusket: I have not looked inside the headlight bucket. I tried, but the trim ring is very intent on not coming off and I didn't want to force it.

essexboydave: Thanks for the tip, I may just have to look into finding such a book. I'm sure it would be very useful for this project and for future ones.
 
I asumed you had the headlight apart, You have to to be able to follow your wiring properly, from the switches and ignition/gauges. A lot of wiring in the 76 gauges
Headlight: When the screws are removed use a sharp object,(screwdriver), and slip it between the headlight ring and The bucket around where the screws hold it on oras close to the bottom you can. Twist the screwdriver gently, should pop the ring, if it doesn't try the other side, keep doing that and it will eventually pop out.

Once the ring has pop'd out it needs to be hit upwards to unhinge the top. Use the heel of your hand or a tap with a rubber mallet. lots of gentle taps and wobbling
 
I'm not near a bike right now, just relying on memory, there should be 2 screws, at about 5 o'clock and 7 o'clock on the headlight ring. Remove the screws and pull the ring from the bottom and lift up. There's sort of a channel at the top of the bucket the head light ring hooks into. Give that a try.

Just saw 650Skull's reply, a bit better explanation.
 
The 75 and 76 bikes were very much the same except for color. The wiring diagrams the same. If you look on page 220 and 221 ofthe Clymers book, satart at the battery + terminal. If you follow the red wires, one goes to the rectifier. This sends the alternator output to the battery. Between the battery and rec you will see a joint. At this joint a red wire runs to the fuse. After the fuse a red wire runs to a joint. At this joint a red wire runs to the key switch, the other to the safety relay. At the key switch, you will see a diagram showing the internals of the switch. It shows which wires connect in each position of the switch.
This is a starter on how to follow a diagram. There maybe some color differences but mostly from age of the wiring.
Just follow the diagrtam, use a meter on a low ohms scale to check wires. Touch one lead at one end of a wire and the other lead to the wire you are wondering about, If you get a reading, it's the right wire.
On your starter working when you jump across the big terminals but not when pressing the button. If you look at your diagram you will see the starter relay. It has two big cables to carry powewr from the battery to the starter. Two small wires, a red/white and a blue/white wire. With the key and engin e stop switch in the run position, use your meter on the dc volts scale. Test for battery voltage on the red/white wire at the relay, it should read about the same as at the battery. If not trace the red/white wire back till you find voltage. Power flows out of the battery to the fuse, key, engine stop switch to the safety relay, the coils and the starter relay. It goes other places too but right now you are tracing the starter circuit. If you have power on the red/white wire unplug the blue/white wire, jump from this wire from the relay to ground.This compltetes the circuit and should trip the relay and crank the starter. If it does, unhook the jumper and plug the wire back in. Now move to the other end of the blue/white wire. Up in the right side switch housing. Remove the housing from the bars. Now hook a jumper from the blue/white wire to ground, this should crank the starter. If not the wire between the relay and switch is bad. If it turns the starter, hook the jumper from the housing to ground. Now push the button. It should turn the stasrter If not remove the button from the housing, clean up the contact points of the button and housing. If it does, then you have a bad connection between the housing and ground. The ground path from the switch housing is from housing to bars, bars to risers, from one of the riser bolts under the top tree a wire goes around to one of the upper tree clamp bolts. from the clamp bolt through the tree to the stem, bearings and races to the frame.
The horn uses the same ground path as the starter button.
With the starter and horn not working points directly to a bad ground path from the housings to ground.
This is the basics of tracing an electrical problem using a diagram, a meter and some practice.
Using this procedure will help you find any problems that come up. If you do have problems just ask.
Leo
 
Thank you for that break-down on how the red wire runs, I just haven't been able to get a firm grasp on the wiring diagrams yet.

Well it seems like a lot of the issues I was having were coming from my having the key in the incorrect position. Once my Uncle told me that, I tried it and I now have spark, horn, turn signal lights, rear brake light, stop light indicator, and the starter button works. That's what I remember from the top of my head anyway. I still DON"T have neutral indicator light, starter motor engagement, brake light from the front brake, or turn signals flashing.

So my new set of questions:

1. Is it possible that my starter motor doesn't engage because of something to do with the neutral safety switch? I was just thinking about this because my neutral indicator light doesn't come on.

2. Is the brake light supposed to go on from pressing the front brake lever?

3. Are the turn signals supposed to blink? If they are, is it just a simple flasher unit that controls that?
 
Thank you for that break-down on how the red wire runs, I just haven't been able to get a firm grasp on the wiring diagrams yet.

Well it seems like a lot of the issues I was having were coming from my having the key in the incorrect position. Once my Uncle told me that, I tried it and I now have spark, horn, turn signal lights, rear brake light, stop light indicator, and the starter button works. That's what I remember from the top of my head anyway. I still DON"T have neutral indicator light, starter motor engagement, brake light from the front brake, or turn signals flashing.

So my new set of questions:

1. Is it possible that my starter motor doesn't engage because of something to do with the neutral safety switch? I was just thinking about this because my neutral indicator light doesn't come on.

2. Is the brake light supposed to go on from pressing the front brake lever?

3. Are the turn signals supposed to blink? If they are, is it just a simple flasher unit that controls that?

If the turn signals light up, but don't blink, it may be due to low battery voltage, or high resistance in the switch/bulbs.

The stock flasher will not flash, if the voltage is less than about 13 volts. So, if the engine is not running, and you only have 12.5 volts, they won't flash. If the engine is running, 1200 rpm may only produce 13 volts, so again they may not flash. Rev the engine and as the voltage increases above 13 volts, the flashers should work.

Its also a good idea to remove each turn signal bulb to check for dirt/corrosion in the bulb sockets. That will mean high resistance and no flashing. Also check that they are the correct wattage bulb (#1156).
 
Thank you for that break-down on how the red wire runs, I just haven't been able to get a firm grasp on the wiring diagrams yet.

Well it seems like a lot of the issues I was having were coming from my having the key in the incorrect position. Once my Uncle told me that, I tried it and I now have spark, horn, turn signal lights, rear brake light, stop light indicator, and the starter button works. That's what I remember from the top of my head anyway. I still DON"T have neutral indicator light, starter motor engagement, brake light from the front brake, or turn signals flashing.

So my new set of questions:

1. Is it possible that my starter motor doesn't engage because of something to do with the neutral safety switch? I was just thinking about this because my neutral indicator light doesn't come on.

2. Is the brake light supposed to go on from pressing the front brake lever?

3. Are the turn signals supposed to blink? If they are, is it just a simple flasher unit that controls that?

It may be that the cog on the starter motor is worn out, I have that problem on mine-when you press the button the starter makes a whirring noise but doesn't turn the engine. This is a purely mechanical issue on mine and nothing to do with the electrics.

Yes the brake light should come on when you operate the brake, assuming it's the same as mine it's a little switch built into the master cylinder.

The turn signals should blink and they are controlled by a flasher unit, in my experience though it's relatively rare for a flasher unit to fail so I'd check the bulbs, wiring and battery voltage first as retiredgentleman has suggested.
 
I did not have the bike running when I was testing things, just a battery hooked up, so it's possible they didn't blink because I didn't have high enough voltage. I will also check the bulbs and sockets if the problem continues.

The brake light goes on if I hit the rear brake pedal, but not if I squeeze the front brake handle. Looking at my front brake handle, I see no wires hooked up to it, the master cylinder, or any other part of the front brake assembly.

Ok, so I guess my starter is a lost cause for now and I won't worry about it. If it's mechanically worn out, it's no big deal, just thought it was interesting that the neutral indicator light doesn't come on AND the starter doesn't engage. I'm used to working on cars that have some sort of safety system, that's the only reason I keep asking.
 
More modern bikes have such safety devices like having to be in nuetral and hold the clutch lever in but older bikes tended to work on the theory of once you'd hit the starter button while in gear you'd learn and not do it again ;)
You're starter may well be repairable if it's worn like mine, the guy I bought mine off gave me a repair kit for it but I haven't got round to fixing it yet!
 
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