Mailman’s XS2 a full on restoration

[Mailman]

5 Twins,
I’ve seen you comment a few times about using Walmart 20 / 50 oil. Are you saying that you use just regular automotive oil?

 

[5twins]

Yep, always have on all my bikes for probably the last 40 years (or more). I've never had any failures I would consider oil related. I used to use Castrol GTX years ago when it was cheap. You could pretty much always get it on sale by the case for $15 or less. Not no more, lol. That's when I found and tried the Walmart brand. I like it. It comes in 5 quart jugs, which is just about perfect for 2 650 oil changes, and is reasonably priced. I also keep a single quart on hand for top-ups between oil changes so I don't have to deplete the remaining 2.5 quarts in the big jug for the next oil change.

Now I know this is in no way a scientific evaluation, but pouring some of it into my hand, and doing the same with some Castrol I still had, the Walmart stuff just looks and feels better. The Castrol looks almost a bit dirty already while the Walmart brand is a very nice honey brown. Not that it means much, but I asked the guy in the Walmart auto department about their oil and he said Mobil makes it for them. Could be true I guess. Obviously, they're not refining their own, just re-branding someone else's.

I feel frequent oil changes are the best thing you can do for this old design motor and it's crude filtering system. That's one of the reasons I don't spend big bucks on fancy oils, it's not in there long enough for me to get my money's worth in my opinion. You may have seen mention recently by a couple members about clutch drag setting in when their oil is wearing out. That's never happened to me that I can recall, on any bike for that matter, which leads me to believe the cheap oil I'm using is holding up OK for the amount of time/distance (about 1000 miles) I run it.

You do have plans for several quick, flushing oil changes after your rebuild I see. Give the Walmart brand a try, I think you'll like it. I use it all the time, and in my cars now too.

 

[5twins]

I'm sure you've heard not to use car oil because it can make your clutch slip. That's true for some of them, but only the "energy conserving" ones. They have anti-friction additives that make them more "slippery" and more energy efficient. But, those additives are normally only put in the light car oils, 30 wt. and below. You can tell if they're in there by looking at the A.P.I. rating ring on the container. The ones with the additives, the ones you don't want to use, will be labeled "Energy Conserving" in the ring .....

Like I said, you usually don't find them or that label on the 40 and heavier weights. My guess is adding them to the thicker oils does no good as far as conserving energy goes so they don't bother. That's good for us because we can use them without having to worry about the clutch slipping.

 

[MaxPete]

I'm sure you've heard not to use car oil because it can make your clutch slip. That's true for some of them, but only the "energy conserving" ones. They have anti-friction additives that make them more "slippery" and more energy efficient. But, those additives are normally only put in the light car oils, 30 wt. and below. You can tell if they're in there by looking at the A.P.I. rating ring on the container. The ones with the additives, the ones you don't want to use, will be labeled "Energy Conserving" in the ring .....

Like I said, you usually don't find them or that label on the 40 and heavier weights. My guess is adding them to the thicker oils does no good as far as conserving energy goes so they don't bother. That's good for us because we can use them without having to worry about the clutch slipping.

FWIW - I totally concur with 5Twins philosophy on oil.

Use good quality stuff but don’t spend a fortune because as long as it is SAE/API approved, it will be fine for the XS650. Also, DO NOT use any oil that has an “Energy Saving” or “Energy Conserving” label. That indicates that the oil has a special additive “package” that will make your wet motorcycle clutch slip.

Pete

 

[Mailman]

Well that’s all very interesting. I know oil debate can be a deep hole, but that’s good information. Thanks!

 

[FB71]

Last time I investigated, SuperTech oil was made by Havoline. But that may have changed.

 

[MaxPete]

I am also active on the Honda ST1300 web forum and on that forum, the words

• “best oil”

or

• “oil recommendation”

are universally understood code for “ashtray heaving sh!tfit”. Almost ANY discussion of oil is a guarantee of a rude, rancorous, argumentative, angry set of posts by people who basically are good guys but don’t know their arse from their elbow. The fact is that the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE - one of the two largest technical groups in the world, the other being the IEEE - the Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers) and the American Petroleum Institute (the API) seals or logos on ANY reputable brand of engine oil are a guarantee of quality, performance and compliance with industry agreed-upon specifications.

People may jump up and down - but any two oils made by any reputable manufacturer, that are certified to the same standard - will essentially perform THE SAME.

Now - there are a lot of different oil specs and so different oils may perform differently - but not because one is better than the other. It is simply that they are different oils because they are designed and manufactured to meet different specs.

Sooooo.....brand loyalty in oils is largely misguided, IMO. Buy the correct viscosity and API service grade oil from a decent manufacturer, for the lowest possible price - and lube-up folks.

Oil changes for the dear old Yamaha XS650, are like diaper changes for our precious children.... “change early, change often and don’t spare the love”.

Pete

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Well, I'm certainly confused. I was running the conventional Valvoline motorcycle 20w50 earlier this year. It demonstrated very high cold viscosity, but normal at running temps. When temps down here got to 90+°F, my sump temps got up to 230°-250°F, and that's when it started giving my clutch problems. Changed over to Valvoline VR1 20w50, and my cold start pressures are down to about half of the Valvoline conventional, similar to Yamalube. At running temps the pressures are slightly above that previous oil. As though the VR1 has a much flatter temp/viscosity curve. Also, at our 90+°F temps, the oil temp in my sump now struggles to get to 200°F.

Not keeping meticulous records, just informal observations. I'd like to try the Walmart (SuperTech?) next...

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Oops, almost forgot. You mentioned difficulty in withdrawing the rocker shafts. A common malady, many posts covering that, and MikesXS even offers a tool for pulling those rocker shafts. But, that ain't supposed to be. An excerpt from the manual:

On my other XS1B, the rocker shafts do indeed slide out easily. On some of the camcovers I've recently acquired, the rocker shafts were very difficult to withdraw, and produced semi-circular aluminum shavings just like in your pics. The rocker shafts have very narrow support in the aluminum camcover, and seem to get hammered upward, which swages the aluminum around the outer edge of the rocker shaft. Withdrawal requires that the rocker shaft shave off this swaged aluminum, since it's blocking its path.

When I reinstall the rocker shafts in those camcovers, I can get up to 0.010" vertical slop in those rocket shafts. I'm suspecting this adds to top end clatter, plus other anomalies, like the uneven/slanted wear patterns I've seen on other posted pics of rocker pads.

Been contemplating designing some sort of tooling to bore-out and bush those rocker shaft holes in the camcover, but that's another long project.

Anyway, just wanted to let you know the probable source of those thin shavings...

 

[MaxPete]

Yup - agree 2M. Those castings of Mailman's would be totally unacceptable now - BUT - by the standards of the late 60s-early 70s, they’re typical. As for the source of all that swarf (the unwanted debris) in the casting, residue from machining is the likely culprit.

The big difference is that now, castings are cleaned extremely carefully and most certainly, well before anyone bolts and torques anything to them, whereas, back then....not so much. Cleaning it (the swarf) out now and even bushing certain key locations with a brass tube, is a great idea. Filling the pores with glue....not so much, unless you can find an adhesive that WILL stay in place AND take the oil, gasoline and temperature environment.

Pete

 

[Mailman]

Yeah Pete,
I had the same impression about those semi circular prices of aluminum. They were in the back of the pocket that holds the rocker shafts and the shape and size of them matched the pockets exactly. Like they were remnants of the machining process.

 

[MaxPete]

Indeed -they look like machining chips to me.

 

[Mailman]

I’ve started the JB Weld repairs on the rocker cover. First I gave everything a good scrubbing with hot soapy water and a hot water rinse. Blew everything out and let it dry.
Then I was able to reach into that vent passageway with a small Dremel grinding stone to rough it up. And applied the JB Weld with a long coffee stir stick.

It worked perfect. Good reach and control. Good smooth application and completely filled the voids.
It went from this to this.

Also did the same to the oil passageway plugs. From this to this.

I’m happy with these repairs. Time to move on to something else.

 

[MaxPete]

Looks good Bob. That should help keep your oil cleaner too.

A few years back Toyota (normally extremely careful engineering) had a bad engine oil sludge problem on their Avalon model and it was traced to several different spots in the engine oil galleries where there were blind passages and corners where oil could collect and sit - but not circulate to the cooler or the filter. Eventually, the sludge would form and then bits of it would break off and gum up things like valve lifters etc.

It was simply a case of inattentive engine design - but it amounted to somewhat the same thing as in Bob’s engine where oil could simply sit in those casting voids and deteriorate over time.

 

[Mailman]

I was just wrapping things up , out in the garage today, when the mailman pulled up and delivered my valve spring compressor. I’ve never used one, but fifteen minutes after getting it in my hands , all the valves are out.

No instructions came with it but it was very intuitive to use. Cost $17 and free delivery, it’s not exactly Snap On, but it worked great. Now I can go to town ( finally! ) on cleaning up the head and lapping the valves. I already have all the tools for that job. Also all new valve guide seals that came with my Athena gasket kit. I finally feel like I’m building up some steam on this engine build. I felt lost in the wilderness for a while.

 

[5twins]

I've tried several different types and styles of valve spring compressors over the years but this one is by far the best. It's the easiest to use and works the best. It's crazy how much Mike's charges for essentially the same tool you got. I actually did buy mine from them but many years ago before they jacked their prices sky high. I don't regret the purchase but still, I could have done much better had I thought to search eBay.

 

[Mailman]

Oops, almost forgot. You mentioned difficulty in withdrawing the rocket shafts. A common malady, many posts covering that, and MikesXS even offers a tool for pulling those rocker shafts. But, that ain't supposed to be. An excerpt from the manual:

View attachment 121154

On my other XS1B, the rocker shafts do indeed slide out easily. On some of the camcovers I've recently acquired, the rocker shafts were very difficult to withdraw, and produced semi-circular aluminum shavings just like in your pics. The rocker shafts have very narrow support in the aluminum camcover, and seem to get hammered upward, which swages the aluminum around the outer edge of the rocker shaft. Withdrawal requires that the rocker shaft shave off this swaged aluminum, since it's blocking its path.

When I reinstall the rocker shafts in those camcovers, I can get up to 0.010" vertical slop in those rocket shafts. I'm suspecting this adds to top end clatter, plus other anomalies, like the uneven/slanted wear patterns I've seen on other posted pics of rocker pads.

Been contemplating designing some sort of tooling to bore-out and bush those rocker shaft holes in the camcover, but that's another long project.

Anyway, just wanted to let you know the probable source of those thin shavings...

Steve, I wanted to address what you brought up. When I pulled out these sleeves with the o rings on them,

You know oil flows around them in the cam cover and there was a lot of sticky sludge that had built up in those cavities.

When I was pulling out the rocker shafts, two of them had more of that sticky build up there than the others.

I know what you’re saying about them. They are not supposed to be hard to extract. And it didn’t feel hard as much as gummy. I’m hoping that a good cleaning and lubing will make everything slide together easily. I’ll let you know.
Bob

 

[cra-z1]

They are probably just gummed up a bit. Getting there, your making some nice progress. When this is done your going to get bored. How is the paint coming.
Probably going to start hanging out at the bars again

 

[Mailman]

Getting there, your making some nice progress. When this is done your going to get bored. How is the paint coming.

Thanks man,
I know what you mean, I’m already worried about not having a project out in the shop. These old bikes however do need constant fiddling with. You must’ve missed my paint. It’s all packed away waiting for me to be ready for it.

 

[robinc]

I’m already worried about not having a project out in the shop.

I can send ya some Kijiji listings Bob. The exchange rate is in your guys favour these days.