Modifying spoke holes advice needed

[inmotionphotog]

Hello gents.

I'm on the verge of getting my wheels trued by a pro-shop in Sydney by the name of Chivo's.

I am running aluminium 36 hole pro-wheel motocross rims that I had powder-coated gloss black. The front hub is the standard XS650 unit, whilst the rear brake and hub is from a 1973 TX750 (larger diameter than XS650 rear setup).

My spokes are (supposedly) the correct lengths required for the XS650 and TX750 hubs. After researching the suitable TX750 rear spokes, I had come to the conclusion that they are the same as the XS650 rear spokes, set at a steeper angle.

The problem I am facing on the rear, is that the dimple and hole directions are slightly off what they need to be to suit the angle of the spokes. Once they begin tightening too far they start bending the spokes. The head of the nipples also don't seat well within the dimples.

I carefully relieved some of the metal that was obstructing the nipples by using a file.

Upon re-lacing the rims, it seems to have done the trick, with it no longer forcing the nipples and spokes into a bending motion. The nipple heads also seat well within the dimples.

My concern is the size of the heads of the nipples that I have. There is a gap at the back of the nipples, due to the angle that they need to run.

Is what I have done considered unsafe?

I'm told that Chivo's actually make spokes and have various nipples on hand at his facilities. Would a nipple with a larger head be a suitable solution?

I am asking for advice in the hope that what I have is useable, thus making my trip to the pro-shop a worthwhile one.

I hope this isn't one of those expensive learning lessons that as a first timer there's been one too many of!

I've attached some images below that best describe my situation.

DSC_0661

DSC_0663

Cheers

Steve

http://inmotionphotogxs650.blogspot.com/

 

[hotdog]

Have you laced it correctly..?? inners vs outers, a pic of the complete rear wheel assy would help.
I have had to re-drill holes with a drill before to re-set the nipple angles.

 

[inmotionphotog]

G'day hotdog.

Thanks for the reply.

Here's some pics of the whole wheel I'd taken the other day (prior to filing the holes).

DSC_0624

DSC_0622

I'm pretty sure I've laced it correctly. I took advantage of the Fong Bro's tutorial to work out how to do it.

http://www.xs650chopper.com/2009/12/how-to-lace-a-wheel-from-scratch/

Judging from your experience, resetting the nipple angles are achievable.

I was hoping I can redeem the current wheel to save time and $$$ without compromising on safety.

Cheers

Steve

http://inmotionphotogxs650.blogspot.com/

 

[weekendrider]

I was hoping I can redeem the current wheel to save time and $$$ without compromising on safety.
http://inmotionphotogxs650.blogspot.com/

imo you have passed that point. You've lost 50% of the load bearing surface for the nippples.

 

[5twins]

If you powder coated the hub as well, you may need to clean the powder out of the seat side of the outer holes. It can stop the spoke from inserting into the hub far enough. I had problems using 650 spokes on a 750 hub, specifically, the outers. I thought they were the same but apparently the bent part is slightly longer on a 750 spoke compared to the 650 one. This caused the 650 outers to start breaking within a few hundred miles. With powder in the hub holes, you'll be adding to this problem, probably making it worse.

 

[hotdog]

imo you have passed that point. You've lost 50% of the load bearing surface for the nippples.

+ 1 - the nipples need full contact with the wheel or you are going to break spokes, not all wheels have the same angle where the nipple seats in the hub - as you have found out, even though you have the right number of holes. e.g. a motox wheel might have a different size hub or different length spokes, the wheel is then offset to the hub by a larger amount of degrees (rotational) & the wheel is manufactured to suit the requirement.
Either that wheel needs its angles re-set + larger nipples fitted to your spokes to give a better contact area or you nee to source another wheel.
The lace up looks good.

 

[inmotionphotog]

imo you have passed that point. You've lost 50% of the load bearing surface for the nippples.

G'day weekendrider, it certainly seems that way. I suspect my only hope is that I didn't get too carried away with the file and that the pro-shop can re-angle them correctly and supply new nipples to suit.

If you powder coated the hub as well, you may need to clean the powder out of the seat side of the outer holes. It can stop the spoke from inserting into the hub far enough. I had problems using 650 spokes on a 750 hub, specifically, the outers. I thought they were the same but apparently the bent part is slightly longer on a 750 spoke compared to the 650 one. This caused the 650 outers to start breaking within a few hundred miles. With powder in the hub holes, you'll be adding to this problem, probably making it worse.

G'day 5twins, one of your posts on another XS650 forum was one of my references in regards to spoke length. I did however get outers that were TX750 specific that have got a longer bend, that in my case is not the reason for the spoke deflection. The shaft of the nipples were definitely being forced by the edge of the hole.

+ 1 - the nipples need full contact with the wheel or you are going to break spokes, not all wheels have the same angle where the nipple seats in the hub - as you have found out, even though you have the right number of holes. e.g. a motox wheel might have a different size hub or different length spokes, the wheel is then offset to the hub by a larger amount of degrees (rotational) & the wheel is manufactured to suit the requirement.
Either that wheel needs its angles re-set + larger nipples fitted to your spokes to give a better contact area or you nee to source another wheel.
The lace up looks good.

Hopefully Chivo's will have an answer and solution that will save the day. Fingers crossed!

If only MikesXS sold a 36 hole 18" rim, I wouldn't have tried to outsmart myself with the rims I'd purchased!

Cheers

Steve

http://inmotionphotogxs650.blogspot.com/

 

[inmotionphotog]

Another option that I've decided might be a suitable alternative, is to re-use the old pisscatcher on the rear only.

The main reason I didn't re-use the old rims to begin with, was that the front had a small bend in the lip, whilst both rims have an array of gouges. The rear isn't as bad as the front and can be reasonable after it is cleaned and powder-coated.

I was wondering what you gents thought as public opinion in terms of retaining my brand new WM style rim at the front, and utilising the pisscatcher at the rear?

Would the mismatched rim styles look too out of place?

If I go with the old rear, I'll need to try and get it powder-coated asap in order for it to get trued and tyre mounted by the end of this week.

Here's some shots of the hole angles and dimples upon the pisscatcher rear.

DSC_0671

DSC_0673


Current front WM rim laced

DSC_0615


Previous rear rim prior to dis-assembly

IMG_0690

Cheers

Steve

http://inmotionphotogxs650.blogspot.com/

 

[hotdog]

As long as its straight - use it. Depends how anal you are going to be..?? Mine have gouges, little wobbles here & there, if you dont want it sell it to me..lol

 

[inmotionphotog]

Update:

Today was the first opportunity that I had to meet with Doug Chivas at Chivo's.

The good news is that I didn't get carried away with my filing attempt, however the solution will include, shortening and re-rolling new threads for the rear spokes, larger nipples and re-lacing accordingly.

I'm also getting larger matching nipples for the front rim too.

The extra labour and nipples is adding to the overall costs, however, it is the quickest, most affordable and logical solution.

I'll post some pics of the complete wheels once they come back on Saturday.

Cheers

Steve

http://inmotionphotogxs650.blogspot.com/

 

[inmotionphotog]

For anyone that's interested, here's how my problem was resolved.

Doug used the 1 cross spoke pattern on the rear rim.

He actually replaced the rear spokes with heavier gauge custom ones and larger nipples.

Here's some pics of the completed wheels.

Rear

DSC_0705 copy

DSC_0706 copy


Front

DSC_0712 copy

Cheers

Steve

http://inmotionphotogxs650.blogspot.com/

 

[gggGary]

back from the dead, thread! Blame it on that darned 2M and his infernal thread linking! Great info here, I learned a BUNCH. Now to go see if 16" rear spokes will single cross an 18" rim to a TX750 hub! The possibilities are mind boggling. MOD ON!