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oil filter

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by inxs, Oct 17, 2009.

  1. gmiller217

    gmiller217 XS650 Addict

    I have been reading this thread trying to figure out just what everybody is talking about. I finally removed my sump plate to see what the filter (particularly MY filter) looked like. ... I am totally shocked at what I found and all the back and forth on the subject. The sump screen is simply that A SCREEN has anybody ever rebuilt or been inside oh lets say a small block Cheverolet? ... the pick up tube has a screen that is much more coarse than what is in the bottom of the xs. That is because the major part of the filtration is done post pump. The screen is there simply to keep large particles from entering the pump. I am going to stick with a simple screen on the intake side and upgrade the filter on the other side of the pump
     
  2. xstra

    xstra just a phase

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    Chevy motors don't share engine oil with their gearboxes and clutches.
     
  3. gmiller217

    gmiller217 XS650 Addict

    True but I change the oil in my bike every 1500 miles as opposed to every 3000 in my car
     
  4. whynot2

    whynot2 XS650 Enthusiast

    I like the concept of the spin on filter shown at the beginning of this post. Although I think it may come off at the first speed bump I'd like to try one and I am too busy to make one. So where can I buy one?
    Thanks,
    whynot2
     
  5. gggGary

    gggGary Stop that! XS650.com Supporter Top Contributor

    I'm with you GMiller

    Aircraft engine makers recomend oil changes at 25 hours with a screen 50 with a filter. A typical engine is an air cooled 6000cc four cylinder run at 60% plus throttle for hours at a time with 10 minute bursts of wide open throttle. Not a direct comparison but those hours were tested to death with metal analysis and measured tear downs.
     
  6. xjwmx

    xjwmx XS650 Guru Top Contributor

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    I've always wondered if these have enough oil pressure to push oil through a spin on filter.
     
  7. gggGary

    gggGary Stop that! XS650.com Supporter Top Contributor

    I don't claim expertise but I don't see why not, the flow through the filter is slow, the oil orifices that really set the flow rate must be about 1/100 of the filter area so the filter resistance should not be an issue?
    A restrictive filter before the pump creates different issues with possible pump starvation, cavitation?
     
  8. xjwmx

    xjwmx XS650 Guru Top Contributor

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    On second thought I guess the conversion uses a Honda filter so maybe it's in the same order of magnitude, turbo entabulator-wise.
     
  9. donald

    donald XS650 Enthusiast

    All the spin on filters i have seen in these posts were originally used on the pressure side of the oil pump putting them in the suck or pickup side of the pump will render their built in bypass valve usless depending on the pressure setting of the bypass valve the pump could suck it open drawing unfiltered oil into the pump .I think you may as well stay with a pick up screen which has a lot more pickup area than the spin on filter and upgrade the filtering system on the output or pressure side of the pump
     
  10. btxs650

    btxs650 XS650 Enthusiast

    I've been wondering about these larger side filters. Probably a dumb question, but if you run this setup, do you simply remove the stock filter from the bottom?
     
  11. donald

    donald XS650 Enthusiast

    No the bottom filter is on the pickup or suck side of the pump .It stops the pump from pulling larger particles into the pump the filter in the rh cover is intended to catch the smaller particles that the magnet in the sump screen does not catch .If you have a sump screen and a rh cover filter you will see that the intake area of the sump far exceeds the surface area of the rh cover filter You do not want to do anything to restrict the sump or pickup side of the pump but you still need to screen the oil going into the pump
     
  12. donald

    donald XS650 Enthusiast

    Of all the sump mods i have seen i like Heins the best .I also feel that with the low pressure 14 psi high volume 1.3 lit /min @1000rpm a flow meter in conjunction with the pressure gauge would give you a better understanding of what is going on in your lubrication system at any given time.
     
  13. retiredgentleman

    retiredgentleman XS650 Guru Top Contributor

    These oil pumps are positive displacement pumps. That means they will build pressure as required to move the oil through the most restrictive areas. If there is too great a restriction then pressure will increase until a relief valve lifts ( either in the filter or the original relief valve).
     
  14. donald

    donald XS650 Enthusiast

    Is this possibly why yamaha removed the relief valve from the pump in the newer engines.With 2 reliefs on the pressure side of the pump which would you prefer to open first the 1 in the pump and dump all oil flow or the 1 in the filter and at least have unfiltered oil flow .If the restriction causing this was after thefilter relief Pamco Pete would hopefully have seen the spike in his oil pressure gauge in time to shut it down and save his engine
     
  15. donald

    donald XS650 Enthusiast

    I get the feeling that we are thinking the same way on this subject
     
  16. donald

    donald XS650 Enthusiast

    Most diesel engines have a gear drive set up for the cams and injection pump .This is why they require an anti foam agent in their oil similar to a motorcycle engine with a combined transmision .Haveing the clutch in their does creat new issues.Haveing said all of this i am not aware of any motorcycle engine that has a significantly better pickup system than the stock 650 yamaha once you have adressed the tears in the sump screen
     
  17. donald

    donald XS650 Enthusiast

    If there were no relief valve in the system and the restriction happend very quicly would the pump split before the gauge blew and squirted Pete in the face to warn hjm of a problem
     
  18. retiredgentleman

    retiredgentleman XS650 Guru Top Contributor

    Every positive displacement pump must have a relief valve somewhere on its discharge. The oil or other liquids must have a path or else the pressure will build and the weakest point in the system will break to release the pressure. If there was no relief valve and the filter blocked completely, then I suspect the high pressure would rip a hole in the screen or paper filter. Yes, an oil sensing line could also blow apart.

    To contrast this, a centrifugal pump can be started with a closed discharge valve for a limited time,( if there is no flow for a long period, then heat builds up and the pump may destroy itself) because it is not positive displacement. Centrifugal pumps produce pressure, and flow is the result.

    In industrial applications, (I worked in power plants for 29 years.) positive displacement pumps will usually have a Pressure Control Valve and a Relief Valve on the discharge piping. The pump would be started with the PCV wide open, and then slowly closed until the correct pressure is achieved for the system. The Relief Valve never opens under normal operation.
     
  19. donald

    donald XS650 Enthusiast

    Thank you for the reply.I apoligize For my spelling and punctuation errors. Typing is not my specialty
     
  20. gggGary

    gggGary Stop that! XS650.com Supporter Top Contributor

    Is it my imagination or did somebody manufacture a paper side filter element? Seems like I saw one once, but a quick look around the web today did not find one. With a good lower screen and an often replaced paper side element I would be satisfied I was doing my part for engine life. (like I'll ever wear one out....)
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2011

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