Oil in cylinders

[Stoop22kid]

Took the chop for the first "long" ride yesterday. Did about 50 miles around town and when I got home a puff of white smoke was following me. I pulled the plugs and they're wet with oil....is there any reason at all that I shouldn't pull the head? I've retorqued the head bolts and everything is tight. Both sides of the exhaust is wet with sooty black oil residue.

 

[Stoop22kid]

Update!!! White smoke from one side and it seems to be missing....the exhaust isn't as strong on the right side as it is the left side

 

[Bob Kelly III]

you should do a compression test before you do anything else write down the pressure you get from each cylinder and then remove the head if the compression is low, like below 100~125 on both cylinders it should be around 150 on each side....
your valves could be too tight but that is not too likely it's probably got bad rings in it and it will need a new set of rings .
sounds like you need to do a complete tuneup on it first to determine what the problem is but at a guess it's rings !
......
what do you have and how is it setup ?
......
burning oil is a real good sign of Low compression ( oil getting by the rings and being burnt with the fuel) or valves too tight and bad valve guide seals, but that is fairly unlikely. but it could make it Look like it's got bad rings in it.....
smoking out one side can be a bunch of different problems like a stuck float in the carb, a busted ring on that side or other things....
if it's a points type machine it is possible the timing /point gap has slipped making that cylinder fire out of proper timing making it light on that side .
seriously, do a complete tuneup on it, timing ,valve adjust and change plugs and then do a compression test
Choppers have the problem of lack of maintenance guys just get on them and ride and never put time in on doing the maintenance
after a while it adds up and you get a failure....
....
I'm betting it needs Rings but all I know so far is what you described ..... a soft exhaust on one side, and black plugs and smoke
.....
the missing can be from oil-foweled spark plugs so that really doesn't tell us much !, but checking timing and carb syncronization is alwayse a good thing to do.
.....
so what are you working on exactly ?
....
Bob.........

 

[member3480]

If you are building up a lot of oil in the cylinder there is a problem. I just replaced a motor for a guy who had oil in the right side cylinder and motor didn't run correctly. When I tore it down the piston was damaged and so are the cylinders. Head loaded with oil and it needs a new bore and head done over. So I would pull head and check it out before you end up doing more damage.

 

[Stoop22kid]

Alright here's what we've got. This is my very first engine rebuild so I very easily could have messed something up.

277 rephase
5th gear OD
Mikes xs bolt on 750 kit

Everything was taken apart and cleaned. I have less that 200 miles on this engine. It does have low compression. I took the exhaust off last night and the inside of both exhaust ports is "sticky" with burnt oil. The right side is worse that the left.

I enjoy working on these bikes and I enjoy learning about them so opening the engine back up isn't a problem. I just didn't want to if there was a simple fix. But it's not looking like it.

Attached is a picture of the chop.

 

[Bob Kelly III]

HUMMM! OK obviously your not afraid to work on it ! good ! cuz it looks like the top ends needs to come off
if you put on a bolt on 750 kit from Mikesxs and you've only got 200 miles on it ....I am thinking you broke a ring on assembly and didn't notice it
BUT.... that would be on only 1 cylinder not both...and it looks like both are effected..... could the Rings be standard size ? that would certainly do it !!!!!! they have to have the proper end gap in the rings in the cylinder and from the looks of things they have about a 1/8" gap !
or the top ring was broken on both sides during assembly, (not that hard to do btw)
I feel for ya all that work and only 200 miles I would be super Pissed ! but more importantly lets get it working right !
I am not an expert especially on a rephased with a 750cc Kit You should be talking to 2M or 5Twins , or gggGary, or maybe RG on this
I do know it should not have given up at just 200 miles ! so I think perhaps one or more of the parts are wrong
Pull the engine get it on the bench and get the head off and cylinders off... and check the cylinders for scratches and pistons for broken rings
I am hoping you won't find broken rings ! and that it's just the wrong Rings in there ! a fairly easy fix actually.
the rings Have to have a certain "END GAP" when put into the cylinder down about 1" from the top you measure that with a feeler gauge
Do that and return with your findings,.... sorry for the bad news, but that is my conclusion !
....Nice looking bike by the way ! you did a great job.....but something is amiss !!!!!
Bob......

 

[Stoop22kid]

Thanks man. We left enough clearance up top to get the top end off without pulling the engine so that shouldn't be a problem. The rings used came with the kit so they should be right. But I'm trying to get off work early tonight and I'm gonna try to get everything atleast taken apart and measured.

 

[Bob Kelly III]

You can get the cam off without splitting the cam chain if you take off the cam bearings there is just enough clearance to get the cam out.
.... unfortunately just because the rings came with the kit that doesn't mean their the right ones.... Mikes has been known to screw up orders badly .....
if the rings are the right ones , as they should be check and see if they were installed upside down or not there is a top and bottom to the top compression ring and I think that also pertains to the 2nd ring but not the oil ring. ( this is usually the case anyway but it is not always the case as some rings are made to go either way, they are usually square on the ends without any sort of taper.)
that is really nice to have the ROOM to work on the top end without having to remove the engine ! was that foresight or just Luck of the draw ?
LOL......
I wish you the best of luck.... after sinking that much money into the thing it shouldn't be giving you any trouble at all ! but it just goes to prove that you do not necessarily get what you pay for !...unfortunately !
once you get the cylinders off stuff clean rags under the pistons to keep out stuff you don't want in the bottom end ( like...anything) this was a hard habit to get into in my early motorcycle mechanicing days but it only took one time of a piston pin clip falling into the bottom end that lead to a complete splitting of the cases to retrieve, that I remember NOW !!!!!! I could not get that silly clip out no matter how hard I shook it and what position it was in..... oil had glued it to the side and it would not come out !
in retrospect, if I would have sprayed WD-40 in there it would have fallen out easy ....oh well ! heheheheh !
.....
I am betting on User error ...I hope anyway for your sake....and Not too much end gap on the rings there should only be about 2 thow to
4 thow clearance between the ends of the rings when you put them in the cylinder ( without the piston) and measure with a feeler gauge
I am not sure of the tolerance but I do know it's fairly tight
Hopefully 5Twins or 2M will hop in here and lend a hand as this is right up their alley and a bit out'a my league !
.....
also....
its best to pull a piston and take off the compression ring and put it in the cylinder and push it down a bit with the piston so it's perfectly square in the cylinder to do your measuring of the "end gap"
if the ring "end gap" is within tolerance and they were installed the right side UP..... then I do not know what the cause is, it would have to be
valve guide seals that's the only thing left on the top end !
good luck !
Bob..........

 

[Bob Kelly III]

Also, re torqueing the head after it was ran the first few miles is a must, if you didn't do this it could simply be an oil leak at the head gasket
allowing oil to be sucked in and burned.........super easy fix ! just re torque the head ! and hope it seals it up ...
kind'a late in the game for this info...sorry but just so you know !
.....
Bob............

 

[xjwmx]

The piston, rings, and cyls are included in the kit, soooo. How many miles total on the kit? It should probably take 500-1000 mi to break it in. Were you thrashing it really bad?

 

[Stoop22kid]

I did retorque the head studs. They turned a little bit but turned back to the original place when I let off the torque wrench. It's almost as if the stud is twisting and once it gets to 25-30 ft/lbs and the wrench clicks and I let off, the stud twists back to how it was.....did any of that make sense?

 

[Stoop22kid]

The piston, rings, and cyls are included in the kit, soooo. How many miles total on the kit? It should probably take 500-1000 mi to break it in. Were you thrashing it really bad?

Yes they were all included in the kit. Miles on the kit were around 200 or so. It's only been around town. Didn't really thrash around on it because up until Friday morning I didn't ride it more than 5 miles away from my house. I never had enough room to be able to get down on it.

 

[xjwmx]

It's almost as if the stud is twisting and once it gets to 25-30 ft/lbs and the wrench clicks and I let off, the stud twists back to how it was

Mine does the same thing if I go past about 27, which is the factory spec. Are you supposed to use the same with the kit?

 

[Stoop22kid]

Mine does the same thing if I go past about 27, which is the factory spec. Are you supposed to use the same with the kit?

It's supposed to be a direct bolt on kit. I'll look into it though

 

[xjwmx]

A lot of stuff could go wrong, but it's mostly stuff that would make a lot of noise. With the problem being oil and oil smoke it looks like it has to be a bad kit or the rings haven't seated yet.

 

[Stoop22kid]

I'll post some pictures tomorrow of the plugs. They're pretty black and wet. I won't get a chance to do much work until Wednesday atleast when I have a day off work. But it's looking like I'll be doing a complete top end rebuild to find out what the problem is....unless it would be worth a shot to loosen the head bolts and retorque them and see what happens

 

[Stoop22kid]

So I've been digging on here a little bit and found some info that's leading me to think I might have a blown head gasket. I didn't have a fan blowing on the engine while it was sitting still and running like I probably should have. I've also had a lot of problems with my carbs as far as tuning. Each of those things 100% my fault.

 

[Bob Kelly III]

Yes it could definitely be a blown head gasket ! when a head gasket leaks it can do it in several different ways....
it can leak oil out of the head cylinder seam. it can squeak under acceleration and it can leak internally causing oil burning
and you can have poor compression on one or both cylinders, so indications are good that it's just the gasket.
if it were mine I would pull the head and use copper-coat on the head gasket both sides many guys will scream at this because it makes getting the head and cylinder separated again a very hard task ( some times near impossible) but I have never had a head leak I could not stop with copper-coat gasket cement... if you go this route be sure upon assembly that you put a drop of oil on the threads of the studs and on the top of the washer just before torquing and i would torque past that recommended point about 5 lbs...I always do just because of the stud flex.
I know that may not be recommended but it works for me !
Hang in there you can get her going properly again !
A fan isn't absolutely necessary unless you run the engine for a long time like 5 minutes or so ( that is a long time for a air cooled engine)
a big box fan stuck in front of the bike set on High will cure the heat of IDLE and the occasional throttle blip .... but Not midrange to high RPM heat to keep the heat down at those speeds it takes a 50 to 60 mph wind ! you won't get that with a fan !
and when tinkering with a bike 5 minutes can go by in a flash
after you turn off the bike and listen if you hear snapping and popping of the engine as it cools down it is way too hot ! should'a used the fan !
try head gasket first.... I would especially if your sure you assembled the rings correctly
right now it's a guessing game as to what it could be but you take all the known information and apply it to known causes and right now the head gasket fits those descriptions to a "T"
your best bet is to replace the head gasket and leave the copper coat for sideplates, but while you have the head off check out the cylinder walls look for scratches or un-even ware....
.....
Bob.......

 

[650Skull]

mikes has sold thousands of 750 kits and there has never been a complaint about them. This site would have had threads on this and there are none...........Mikes gets blamed for things out of hand and some newer members wouldn't have a clue. mikes big bore kit comes with explicit instructions on ring gap and how to install both cylinder rings and oil ring and it also reminds to check for piston clearance and to make sure there is no burs left on the ring ends when you file them for fitting.......Did you follow the instruction?

First off do a compression test, some people have said the 750 kit has compression up around the 170 mark others a bit lower. On a new engine you would expect both cylinders to be within a lb or 2. A compression test will tell you if the rings haven't set or are damaged.

Second A leak down test will tell you if the valve guides or seals are not doing their job.

The head gasket could be blown but usually this will show up with an oil leak on the outside as well. If you do have to replace the head gasket DO NOT use copper coat or any other type of gasket sealer. Do not become your own DPO. Imagine if you had used gasket goo on the head gasket and now you may have to go back into the motor.

A thought.............Did you install the baffle in the head.........

 

[Stoop22kid]

Gonna try to find some time in the morning when I get off work to take the head off and check some things out. And yes the baffle was installed and all directions were followed to the best of my knowledge