Oil level and oil consumption.

[MaxPete]

You must not live up nort! You aint starting a 50 weight motor on a cold morning, lol. A big part of multi weight is faster cold start oil circulation. Studies have showed most wear happens before the oil circulates

Yes - I totally agree with Gary on this point. I usually hate oil threads, but I have been thinking about oil consumption and all of my experience and my engine design contacts in the auto sector concur that most wear happens on start-up and at lower temps, multi-viscosity oil is a good thing to promote circulation throughout the engine.

Pete

 

[Jim]

concur that most wear happens on start-up and at lower temps

I seem to recall that Lycoming did a study years ago and determined that aprox 70% of an engines wear came from startup.

 

[MaxPete]

aprox 70% of an engines wear came from startup.

Yup - that 70% figure accords with auto industry studies too (although some of them suggest even higher figures). That, along with reducing overall energy consumption due to windage, was one of the drivers of going to very low viscosity multi-grades like 0W40 - which is now pretty standard in a lot of imported vehicles (whatever the heck "import" means these days).

The lower viscosity oils will circulate much more readily at low ambient temperatures and thus, reduce start-up friction and wear and then, once the engine reaches operating temperature, the oil will move to the temp-viscosity curve for the higher viscosity "upper" number and look after lubrication at higher speeds and loads as well as heat transfer from hot-spots like pistons, valves and bearings.

 

[XSLeo]

O my 750 kitted 75, at oil change time with level half way between lines it stays there till around 1200 miles or so. Then it starts to drop toward the lower line.
At around 1500 is where I do the changes. I use the Valvolene 20/50 bike oil.
Leo

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Another story from the '70s.

A lot of folks in the service industry noticed mysterious oil losses. The oil reps responded. Long story short, they claimed that if you did an oil change that used a different base stock, like going from a Pennsylvania based crude, to a Texas based crude, the new oil would undo and redo the effects of the previous oil, like the glazing, and that process would consume some of that new oil, in a sacrificial way. Sure seemed like that was happening, because the mysterious oil loss didn't occur if you refilled with the same oil.

Well, that's the story we'd tell the customers. They bought-off on it...

 

[MaxPete]

....silly customers....

 

[YamadudeXS650C]

Anyway, this is the first forum I've ever participated in and I enjoy the company.

There are lots of us OldFarts here at the website, GoldenBoy.
Your membership and thread contributions are very welcome.

 

[gggGary]

Dang I tried to find the reference to how a multi weight that is now labeled 10w30 was originally called 30w30 a more accurate description of how it works, but consumers didn't get the nuance. By the way the W stands for winter not weight. Lots of interesting history, false starts that soured consumers and chemistry in the evolution of oil tech.

 

[MaxPete]

Yup - and there is more urban legend and uninformed BS surrounding engine oil on almost any bike or car forum than you can shake a stick at.

I am also active on the Honda ST Owners forum and an oil thread there can turn normally nice collegial people into raging raving @-holes within minutes. The problem is that most of them don't know their arse from their elbow and they won't do any real research or listen to anyone who does know. Oh well.

 

[Marlin72xs]

Dang I tried to find the reference to how a multi weight that is now labeled 10w30 was originally called 30w30 a more accurate description of how it works, but consumers didn't get the nuance. By the way the W stands for winter not weight. Lots of interesting history, false starts that soured consumers and chemistry in the evolution of oil tech.

Gary: I seem to recall seeing a 20w20 back then.
Golden boy: The full sized manual for my 72 was purchased in 74. It was a 71 manual with an addendum for the disc brake and starter and such. It only mentioned 20-40. I will check my glove box handbook tonight.
To all: In the very early 70's, when multi-weights started appearing on the shelves, Popular Science had an article about multi weights vs straight weights. These were all mineral oils. Anyway, in conclusion, it was determined that a straight 40 weight held its viscosity better than a 10-40 at high temps. Of course, that was then.
Have to go, but when I return, I have a few things to add about running at the low mark. I'm sure you're all waiting with bad breath!

 

[Goldenboy]

Gary: I seem to recall seeing a 20w20 back then.
Golden boy: The full sized manual for my 72 was purchased in 74. It was a 71 manual with an addendum for the disc brake and starter and such. It only mentioned 20-40. I will check my glove box handbook tonight.
To all: In the very early 70's popular science had an article about multi weight s vs straight weights. Remember, these are all mineral oils. Anyway, in conclusion, it was determined that a straight 40 was better at high temps than a 10-40.
Have to go, but when I return, I have a few things to add about running at the low mark. I'm sure you're all waiting with bad breath!

You don't know what this has done to me. I just finished off a case of straight 50 wt before lunch.

 

[gggGary]

Gary: I seem to recall seeing a 20w20 back then,
...... I have a few things to add about running at the low mark. I'm sure you're all waiting with bad breath!

Sucking on breath mints and waiting.

 

[Marlin72xs]

I'm back. Just changed the oil in my truck and only drained the oil in me bike. It was very clean for just over 2k miles. Ok, way freakin cleaner than with any other mineral or part syn, that I've used up until now. I drained it through a thin white clothe in to a clear container. It's still draining out of the clothe as I type. Will check it tomorrow nite along with the filters. But I will say that the Al metallic swirls in the oil are not as apparent. Very faint.
Oil level: I mentioned this once before, or was it twice - can't remember. Am I repeating myself again? Yogi Berra said it best! Any way, when my 72 grew into a 750 last June, I put a 75 dipstick in it, which most of you know is about a 1/2" down from the 256 stick. I also added that little spring steel clip that baffles the breathers. 256's have none. Not bragging, well, yes I am, on all 3 changes, the level didn't really move from the top mark. Yes, when driven hard, but actually I'm kinda still breaking it in, haven't gone over 6K rpm yet, I get a few drops out of the breathers. For instance, after the Dragon run and when I flew back on the Nantahalla (sp) Skyway.
I can't very well compare the old with the new, but old 72, 650, needed oil almost every 200 miles, and there was no way that I would trust it to run at the lower mark. Ok, no balls! Call me a chicken. No really, go ahead, come on!

 

[Marlin72xs]

The oil level not dropping past the lower mark may be a secret Yamaha failsafe. I wish.
Changed my oil last night and came to a compromise. Mobil 1, 1qt of 10w-40 & about 1.3qt of 20w-50. Also ~4oz of Rislone ZDDP.
Just found this site this morning about oil ratings. Then realized that he 10-40 I used was SN and the 20-50 was SJ.

http://www.pqiamerica.com/apiserviceclass.htm

 

[Marlin72xs]

Here's another tidbit.

Amsoil kicks ass every time. Oh, no! Did I choose the wrong oil?

 

[xjwmx]

Oil level can drop past the low mark, if that's what you're wondering After a rebuild I can't see any oil use at all. The key reason from what I've read seems to be the rings I got press hard against the cylinder wall.
I think I've read wear at startup has more to do with auto-type flat bearings requiring oil pressure but could be mistaken.
Amsoil. I think that's Amway. I wouldn't trust their own reports. You'd probably find other reports where it wasn't always the leader...

 

[fredintoon]

Yup - and there is more urban legend and uninformed BS surrounding engine oil on almost any bike or car forum than you can shake a stick at. - - -

Hi Pete,
and your post brings this string into my area of expertise!
My apprenticeship training included lectures from outside experts, here are some highlights from the Rolls-Royce car guy.
Even a Rolls-Royce engine will wear out if it's driven by a Doctor to the wealthy who still makes house calls.
Start, drive 2 miles on a cold engine, house-call for an hour, repeat all day = 5,000 miles to engine wear-out.
All engines burn oil.
If the level don't drop over time it means the lost oil is getting topped up with fuel leaking past the pistons.
And I change my XS650's oil every 2,000 km because I reckon the bike's roller & ball bottom end tends to
wear out the oil's anti-friction additives a lot quicker than shell bearings would.

 

[Marlin72xs]

I could put these tests up all day, so if you Google 4 ball wear test, then images, you will see a lot of Amsoil winning graphs whether it is noted or not. Interesting to note, that the motorcycle graph shows Mobil 1 V-Twin 20w-50 performs very well, like 2nd. It also shows that the Amsoil has more ZDDP in it. Many tests are old.

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

My best oil consumption story comes from an ol' friend of mine, a retired B36 crewchief.

His job was to walk into the B36 wing during flight missions, service the engines, replenish the oil. The oil tank for each of the (6) R-4360 corncob engines had a volume of 190 Gallons. On a typical 14 hour mission, total oil consumption would be around 600-700 Gallons. About 7 gph per engine...

 

[mrtwowheel]

My best oil consumption story comes from an ol' friend of mine, a retired B36 crewchief.

His job was to walk into the B36 wing during flight missions, service the engines, replenish the oil. The oil tank for each of the (6) R-4360 corncob engines had a volume of 190 Gallons. On a typical 14 hour mission, total oil consumption would be around 600-700 Gallons. About 7 gph per engine...

THAT would be a "chem trail".

Scott