Hey guys, I read a thread before but basically I've had clutch slippage and I got new friction plates and springs since its bored to 750... When I ordered the plates the guy at 650 central said he recommends the diesel oil and was reading about the rotella t 15-40 being good... In the past I've just been running the Lucas motorcycle 20-50 oil... So basically, I'm just curious, which one would do good for the 750... I know the clutch is prone to wear more being that it's bored up... But was just curious as to if anybody has experimented with the two for the 750 and which one would be best. Thanks!
-
Enjoy XS650.com? Consider making a donation to help support the site.
XS650.com receives a small share of sales from some links on this page, but direct donations have a much greater impact on keeping this site going.
Oil oil oil
- Thread starter mattg666
- Start date
-
- Tags
- clutch maintenance
I am Carbon
shade tree mechanic
If it has the JASO MA rating you will okay.
People have been using the Shell rotella for years in these engines.
I use Valvoline 20-50w motorcycle oil works for me.
People have been using the Shell rotella for years in these engines.
I use Valvoline 20-50w motorcycle oil works for me.
Paulrxs650
XS650 Enthusiast
A good quality 20 - 50w motorcycle oil is my choice. try to stay away from oils designed for cars as they often have friction reducing additives that, whilst are great for the engine, your bikes clutch shares that oil and, they will cause it to slip.
The rub is; now that street motorcycles are coming equipped with catalytic converters they have had to change the oil formulations so as not to destroy the cats. I usually use 10-40 ATV oil it's designed for wet clutch use. I am going to try some valvoline 20-50 racing oil in a very early, roller bearing small end motor and see if the clutch is happy with it. I have used 15-40 diesel oil in the past. I thought at least once it affected clutch action, but that may have been a clutch on the way out anyways, shrug.
rainycity
XS650 Addict
So I`m assuming no synthetics?
I use Valvoline in pretty much everything I own, and when I got this bike I immediately changed the oil with 10-30 Valvoline.
I have always had good success with it but never really thought much though about the clutch sharing the oil, now I`m second guessing.*lol*
Maybe I should go 20-50.
But anyways, when I picked it up I asked him what he had in it and he said I just changed it a few days ago after we got it running so its fine.
I said that`s fine but what did you use?
Mobil. It has Valvoline now.
I use Valvoline in pretty much everything I own, and when I got this bike I immediately changed the oil with 10-30 Valvoline.
I have always had good success with it but never really thought much though about the clutch sharing the oil, now I`m second guessing.*lol*
Maybe I should go 20-50.
But anyways, when I picked it up I asked him what he had in it and he said I just changed it a few days ago after we got it running so its fine.
I said that`s fine but what did you use?
Mobil. It has Valvoline now.
- Messages
- 683
- Reaction score
- 1,477
- Points
- 143
Ooooooops!
Last edited:
- Messages
- 683
- Reaction score
- 1,477
- Points
- 143
From 76 to 89, I've been using Castrol 20-50. When back on the road in 2014, i tried Castrol High Mileage 20-50. It's a synthetic blend. My last 3 oil changes have been Castrol regular 20-50, but I add some Rislow ZDDP, a zinc additive. Due to catalytic converters, oil manufacturers removed the zinc or most of it.
I have also read that old muscle car engines should have a zinc additive in the oil due to high lift cams and the lack of rollers. Well, our old bikes are the same the way I see it.
I may try Mercruiser 25-40. I use that in my 4.3L boat engine.
What ever you do, don't use STP oil treatment or similar. Your clutch will never work again. Any of you old guys like me remember the STP screwdriver test?
I have also read that old muscle car engines should have a zinc additive in the oil due to high lift cams and the lack of rollers. Well, our old bikes are the same the way I see it.
I may try Mercruiser 25-40. I use that in my 4.3L boat engine.
What ever you do, don't use STP oil treatment or similar. Your clutch will never work again. Any of you old guys like me remember the STP screwdriver test?
dps650rider
XS650 Addict
I read on this forum that STP for the XS was good because it has ZDDP. Ran it in my bike for a couple thousand miles or so and no problems with the clutch.
pamcopete
Ride.Enjoy.Life is Simple
I use Valvoline 10W40 Motorcycle oil at $6.29 a quart, which by today's standards is a reasonable price. I buy it at Advance Auto because that is convenient to me. The one thing to avoid is to get hung up on an expensive oil because you think it will do wonders for the engine. The thing that will do wonders for the engine is to change the oil frequently, like every 1,000 miles or on condition with the XS650 because it has roller and ball bearings on the crankshaft meaning that the polymers that give oil its multi as in multi viscosity are destroyed at the molecular level from the almost infinite pressure that roller and ball bearings produce at that pin point contact. When the molecular polymers are destroyed, the oil reverts to its base viscosity, so a 10W40 oil will become a 10 which is way too thin to do the job. The other factor with our beloved XS650's is that they do not have an oil filter as such. The screen is there to protect the engine in the event of some sort of destruction in the works.
I also have a few Hondas and they have the more traditional automobile type of Babbitt bearings that do not produce the extreme pressure at the molecular level and they have a real full flow oil filter, so I can safely go 2,000 or even 3,000 miles between changes, although I usually change the oil on condition.
So, stay away from expensive oil because that is a disincentive to change the oil more frequently due to the cost.
I also have a few Hondas and they have the more traditional automobile type of Babbitt bearings that do not produce the extreme pressure at the molecular level and they have a real full flow oil filter, so I can safely go 2,000 or even 3,000 miles between changes, although I usually change the oil on condition.
So, stay away from expensive oil because that is a disincentive to change the oil more frequently due to the cost.
weaselbeak
XS650 Junkie
Maybe not enough power to make it slip?.......
I put some STP in a GS1100 Suzuki when I was much younger and the clutch couldn't hold at all under a load. I changed the oil several times and still didn't get it all out. I ended up pulling the plates and giving them a good gasoline bath. I still use the stuff in my dry clutch Moto Guzzis. My youth and poverty made for some wonderful STP stories, marvelous stuff.dps650rider
XS650 Addict
I do have heavier springs in the clutch. Put them in because with the extra torque I get from 700cc, etc I needed them.
Pamcopete, do you think it would be better to just use straight 30 than 10w 40 because, if I understand this correctly it would not thin out as it ages?
Pamcopete, do you think it would be better to just use straight 30 than 10w 40 because, if I understand this correctly it would not thin out as it ages?
pamcopete
Ride.Enjoy.Life is Simple
I have never tried 30W oil and the official owners manual for the 1981 H model says 20w40. I can't find any 20W40 so I use 10W40 motorcycle oil.
rainycity
XS650 Addict
Weaslebeak, If I remember right, most all of your smaller engines (between lawn mower size and v-8`s)should use a multi-grade oil as opposed to a standard weight. I read why when I got my first honda car way back but that was a long time ago.
XS650D
XS650 Junkie
When I first purchased my xs the original owner used 10w40.The engine only had approx. 600 miles after a total rebuild,(This guy was a Yamaha Mechanic for 30 years)
After 2000 miles I changed the oil to 20/50 as I figured it was better for an air cooled bike.Most Harleys use it.What I noticed with the thicker oil was it definitely took longer to warm up and was harder to start.The thinner oil let the motor turn over quicker and warm up faster.Plus I think u would have less chance off ripping a hole in the screen filter with the thinner oil,just guessing here.I am still using the thicker stuff though cause once the bike does warm up it wull break down slower with heat I feel.Both oils were Dino,no syn.
After 2000 miles I changed the oil to 20/50 as I figured it was better for an air cooled bike.Most Harleys use it.What I noticed with the thicker oil was it definitely took longer to warm up and was harder to start.The thinner oil let the motor turn over quicker and warm up faster.Plus I think u would have less chance off ripping a hole in the screen filter with the thinner oil,just guessing here.I am still using the thicker stuff though cause once the bike does warm up it wull break down slower with heat I feel.Both oils were Dino,no syn.
dps650rider
XS650 Addict
The manual for my '78 also recommends 20w40 but the dealer recommended 20w50 to quiet the top end noise after I asked about it.
My garden tractor and lawn mower (both are old) recommend 30 for summer and 10 for winter but I usually end up using multi for convenience.
Still, if 20w50 is 20 with vi improvers that break down in our engines would it not make sense that straight 30 would have an advantage except for when it's hot?
Not recommending this just have long wondered...
My garden tractor and lawn mower (both are old) recommend 30 for summer and 10 for winter but I usually end up using multi for convenience.
Still, if 20w50 is 20 with vi improvers that break down in our engines would it not make sense that straight 30 would have an advantage except for when it's hot?
Not recommending this just have long wondered...
Somewhere in here, and I believe also on the bobistheoilguy site is the mention that oils in the 30 wt range will have reduced zinc, and the friction modifiers that hurt our clutches.
In my oil temp thread,
http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42650
I found my engine oil got up to 230°F max. The thread shows these viscosity (cSt) vs grade vs temp curves that I believe deserve a second look. Most oil selections are for liquid-cooled engines, and if you look at the viscosity value for the 30 wt grades (reddish lines) at the liquid-cooled temp ref of 212°F, you'll see the viscosity in the region of 11-12 centi-stokes (cSt).
To get that same viscosity at our Texas summer temps, 230°F, requires one of the 40 wt grades (greenish lines).
I prefer the higher 16 cSt viscosity provided by the 50 wt grades (turquoise line), since it's tradition out here, and to keep the clatter down.
View attachment 56727
In my oil temp thread,
http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42650
I found my engine oil got up to 230°F max. The thread shows these viscosity (cSt) vs grade vs temp curves that I believe deserve a second look. Most oil selections are for liquid-cooled engines, and if you look at the viscosity value for the 30 wt grades (reddish lines) at the liquid-cooled temp ref of 212°F, you'll see the viscosity in the region of 11-12 centi-stokes (cSt).
To get that same viscosity at our Texas summer temps, 230°F, requires one of the 40 wt grades (greenish lines).
I prefer the higher 16 cSt viscosity provided by the 50 wt grades (turquoise line), since it's tradition out here, and to keep the clatter down.
View attachment 56727
pamcopete
Ride.Enjoy.Life is Simple
TwoMany...,
Excellent info! Finally, someone who introduces some science to the otherwise emotional subject of oil. I would really like to hear your scientific take on the theory of crushed Polymers in multi viscosity oil, especially in engines with ball and roller bearings on the crank like the XS650. I also understand that synthetic oil achieves it's multi viscosity characteristic without the use of Polymers and is therefore not subject to the phenomena of crushed polymers reducing the effective viscosity. Were it not for the super high price of synthetic oil, I would probably use it but the high cost is a deterrent to frequent changes which are dictated not just by the specter of crushed polymers, but also because old air cooled engines have a lot of blow by and the oil gets dirty fast so frequent oil changes are called for.
And please verify that synthetic oil is not really synthetic. It is still formulated from crude petroleum but they somehow break down the oil and "synthesize" synthetic oil at the molecular level. You're from Texas. You know all this stuff!
Excellent info! Finally, someone who introduces some science to the otherwise emotional subject of oil. I would really like to hear your scientific take on the theory of crushed Polymers in multi viscosity oil, especially in engines with ball and roller bearings on the crank like the XS650. I also understand that synthetic oil achieves it's multi viscosity characteristic without the use of Polymers and is therefore not subject to the phenomena of crushed polymers reducing the effective viscosity. Were it not for the super high price of synthetic oil, I would probably use it but the high cost is a deterrent to frequent changes which are dictated not just by the specter of crushed polymers, but also because old air cooled engines have a lot of blow by and the oil gets dirty fast so frequent oil changes are called for.
And please verify that synthetic oil is not really synthetic. It is still formulated from crude petroleum but they somehow break down the oil and "synthesize" synthetic oil at the molecular level. You're from Texas. You know all this stuff!
Last edited:
Hey, Pete! Thanx for the vote of confidence.
Yes, it is. Well, I guess I dunnit again. Got drafted into another 'war'.
On one side of the fence is the hard science and chemistry of the petrochem industry.
Then, there's us consumers.
In between are the marketing and sales guys, who try to boil it down, then spice it up.
No wonder we're confused.
I got deep into this back in the '80s, with the hotrod & airplanes & Amsoil & Aeroshell Synthetics.
Maybe you got into this with your Skymaster.
But, that stuff is now oldschool, and I'm trying to catch up.
It's a huge (*gasp*) industry.
There's some old documents (that I haven't found on the 'net, yet) that showed the viscosity degradation curves of straight weight oils, versus multi-vis oils. Straight weight oils have a rapid reduction in viscosity with temperature, while the multi-vis oils have a bit flatter curve.
Essentially, when you view these viscosity charts, you can see the intersecting lines that show, for example, a multi-vis oil having the same viscosity as a 10wt at freezing, but it's flatter curve shows it intersecting the 30wt at 212°F. Hence, it's labled as a 10w-30. Some folks would have you believe that the oil 'thickens up' at higher temps. Actually, it's just a less aggressive viscosity reduction.
The synthetics, due to their stability, also demonstrate these flatter viscosity degradation curves.
But, to avoid confusing the public, they often get the multi-vis labelling, like 10w-30.
Remember the public outcry when Shell Syntec was simply labelled as 10wt?
I'm contemplating a different approach to this, sort of a 'flanking' maneuver. (This IS a war, right?) The preamble to this would be in a new thread. Planting the seeds, so to speak.
Some of the newest stuff comes outta natural gas. You're hitting at the heart of the industry, building and breaking down long-chain hydrocarbons. Quite complicated, with protected propriority processes. This stuff fills books. I'll see if I can simplify it.
Haha, how did you know? Yes, in addition to Texas History, Texas 'Gold' was required curriculum.
I still remember elementary school studies, where we had to draw cracking tower schematics and name the various products. I wonder if that's still taught.
For now, the Bobistheoilguy site is a good resource, as well as factory recommendations and good consumer testimony.
I'll put together something for a new thread...
Yes, it is. Well, I guess I dunnit again. Got drafted into another 'war'.
On one side of the fence is the hard science and chemistry of the petrochem industry.
Then, there's us consumers.
In between are the marketing and sales guys, who try to boil it down, then spice it up.
No wonder we're confused.
I got deep into this back in the '80s, with the hotrod & airplanes & Amsoil & Aeroshell Synthetics.
Maybe you got into this with your Skymaster.
But, that stuff is now oldschool, and I'm trying to catch up.
It's a huge (*gasp*) industry.
There's some old documents (that I haven't found on the 'net, yet) that showed the viscosity degradation curves of straight weight oils, versus multi-vis oils. Straight weight oils have a rapid reduction in viscosity with temperature, while the multi-vis oils have a bit flatter curve.
Essentially, when you view these viscosity charts, you can see the intersecting lines that show, for example, a multi-vis oil having the same viscosity as a 10wt at freezing, but it's flatter curve shows it intersecting the 30wt at 212°F. Hence, it's labled as a 10w-30. Some folks would have you believe that the oil 'thickens up' at higher temps. Actually, it's just a less aggressive viscosity reduction.
The synthetics, due to their stability, also demonstrate these flatter viscosity degradation curves.
But, to avoid confusing the public, they often get the multi-vis labelling, like 10w-30.
Remember the public outcry when Shell Syntec was simply labelled as 10wt?
I'm contemplating a different approach to this, sort of a 'flanking' maneuver. (This IS a war, right?) The preamble to this would be in a new thread. Planting the seeds, so to speak.
Some of the newest stuff comes outta natural gas. You're hitting at the heart of the industry, building and breaking down long-chain hydrocarbons. Quite complicated, with protected propriority processes. This stuff fills books. I'll see if I can simplify it.
Haha, how did you know? Yes, in addition to Texas History, Texas 'Gold' was required curriculum.
I still remember elementary school studies, where we had to draw cracking tower schematics and name the various products. I wonder if that's still taught.
For now, the Bobistheoilguy site is a good resource, as well as factory recommendations and good consumer testimony.
I'll put together something for a new thread...
foot note or update if you will. It's getting harder and harder to find zddp in oils, diesels are now cat equipped so the old Rotella etc. oil standbys aren't so recommended anymore. I've been using Valvoline VR1 20-50 racing oil as I mentioned way above and so far so good. I am not religious about oil and if I'm low it gets what ever the station has on the shelf. VR1 label claims high zinc (zddp) content and even warns against use in cat equipped engines. No clutch issues so far and one of my engines gives it a pretty good work out.
We all tend to think dark oil = change time but it's really not an indicator, probably 95%? of the dark is just molecular carbon and has no effect on oil performance. Learned that from diesel engine oil discussions they turn their oil black in a few miles. The Sprinter was happy with 10-12 K mile change intervals as monitored and notified by it's engine module.
We all tend to think dark oil = change time but it's really not an indicator, probably 95%? of the dark is just molecular carbon and has no effect on oil performance. Learned that from diesel engine oil discussions they turn their oil black in a few miles. The Sprinter was happy with 10-12 K mile change intervals as monitored and notified by it's engine module.
I remember xsjohn recommending a blend of vr1 and something else.
Does anyone have experience with oil forming something like a grit, maybe due to heat? I took the valve cover off an old Mazda 4-spd 626 to adjust the valves and inside was thick goo that was like black sand.
Does anyone have experience with oil forming something like a grit, maybe due to heat? I took the valve cover off an old Mazda 4-spd 626 to adjust the valves and inside was thick goo that was like black sand.
