Pamco ignition break up

[Maddog2201]

Regulators been replaced, I'm running what was recommended earlier, did wonders for charge rate.

Relays don't induce anything, they're switches, I don't know why you think relays are an issue, you're just bypassing the low current that the switches are really capable of.

Your car, and all new bikes run relays to the controls, if they were causing issues they wouldn't be used. Running loads directly through the switches is 70's technology and it should stay there.

The bike literally wouldn't run because of the voltage drop when run with the loom that the bike was built with man, I don't know why you think I'd put that back in the bike.

 

[Maddog2201]

What I will be checking is the quality of the connections between the E-Advance box and the rest of the system, because I'm not 100% sure how they turned out, it was a few years ago now.

I need to check everything again, I've learned a lot since I wired the Pamco in, but relays aren't going to be the issue.

 

[Jan_P]

No No The relay has a coil and act as a magnetic.. .
That coil and its function is establishing a magnetic field that depending on where that magnetic field is located.
Can create disturbances
A relay in the boot of a car ---is entirely different than if it sits on the Pamco.

Logically it is like this
Component A ( Pamco )
Is installed in system B ( XS 650 )
There has been development work done as well as experiments Many units sold and design perhaps altered.
A and B are matched . It is a working solution.

What you have done is altered the B to ----- > C Something else
You don't have the same system as the designer have designed the A ( Pamco ) for.
But A is most likely a Small chip computer system .. That is not at all times certain that one in a computer system can do that.
Adding and removing things.

I and others don't know the differences in B or C .. The wiring is not presented.. Perhaps it can work perhaps not.
But pretty certain is that A +B works and if it not works fault finding is simpler. There are often instructions as well as here Guru Class
Experience in A+ B system but none in A + C system . not even if it was known
That is what I am talking about --- that if the bike shall run properly , within the week one needs to go to the system A +B
A+C is unknown to us and has unknown characteristics. No accumulated knowledge. Perhaps No Valid fault finding procedures ,,

A common fault is poor ground.

The bike literally wouldn't run because of the voltage drop when run with the loom that the bike was built with man, I don't know why you think I'd put that back in the bike.

If there is a large Voltage drop there is the Possibility of a partial Short Circuit.
I don't know why you think I'd put that back in the bike.

The reason would be as presented above .. we could help out better and perhaps prevent an engine damage ..within the week I would believe.
But Its your life and Your bike . Sooner or later you will find it .. Lets hope before there is a damaged piston.

 

[Maddog2201]

Oh, yeah, nah. Relays are under the tank, E-Advance is on the battery box, the magnetic field in the relays is tiny, and also only fluctuates if the input current does, once the magnetic field is established the coil acts like a dead short anyway, so it becomes a non issue. And that short is going to be no joke about 60ma at most. If magnetic fields were an issue the spinning rotor in the alternator would cause more issues to the system my dude.

Nah man, partial short circuit is a possibility, but bad connections and poor conductivity from aged wire will also cause voltage drop when current flows. Which is what was happening, also tiny switches that were never really designed for high current anyway.

There's no reason adding relays to the system would effect it in this way. No logical reason. Aside from me making bad connections, which is possible, or bad relays, which I've swapped them around already.

If I have to, I'll run and rev the bike with my Scope connected to the positive, input and output of the coil, inductive readings from the plug leads. It'll be informative, but I'm VERY confident that relays aren't causing the issue. Condensers maybe, not relays.

I Probably will investigate noise in the system anyway, the thought occurred that maybe the connection to the E-Advanced wasn't great and it's losing power at times. Also worth mentioning that at one point the earth cable for the coil broke off the E-Advance and I repaired it. Going to have to double check it all again.

The reason would be as presented above .. we could help out better and perhaps prevent an engine damage ..within the week I would believe.
But Its your life and Your bike . Sooner or later you will find it .. Lets hope before there is a damaged piston.

You're telling me I should put the system of wiring back in that caused the bike to be incapable of revving past 2000 RPM? Because you understand it better?

I have a wiring diagram that I updated of the changes I made to the Original TX650A Wiring loom. Super simple mods, simple enough that I think I erased one or two wires including adding the Pamco to the diagram. I'll find it and post it here so people can understand what changes I made. Super simple though man.

 

[Jan_P]

Dont take this the wrong way
Lets face it
Bike has not been running properly .since April 2018.
I have done this for 35 years. With crap wiring I can do it ..Perhaps not immediately. But others here can
I believe it could be sorted within a week. ..
But if you like to do it yourself Fine ... I can find something else to do
Please keep writing I will follow the progress.

 

[5twins]

A nice dependable, low cost replacement coil is a Honda MP08. It was used on many Honda models during the '80s and 90s, including the Goldwing. It has about a 3 ohm primary resistance so will work fine with a Pamco. Another nice but more expensive option is a red Andrews. I've been using one of them for years with my Pamco .....

 

[Maddog2201]

Thanks 5 twins, I'll see if my local Honda dealer has one of those coils in stock, it'll be better that driving across the city to pick up the Harley equivalent.

Sorry Jan_P, I'll admit I'm getting a bit frustrated, I know you're helping, I'm taking it on board, but the bike wasn't running at all before April 2018 too, it took a new wiring loom for it to rev at all, relays included. I'm still going to investigate your suggestions, I'll be throwing a new ignition coil on first though so I can rule out the Chineseium that is the mikes coil pack as they're known for failure.

I will be inspecting all of my connections again, always worth checking, but I'll save that for the new coil, I've never liked the look of this one tbh.

When I do investigate you can bet there'll be testing done in a few ways, all recorded with a scope and uploaded here for future use.

Cheers

 

[5twins]

I'm not sure if they're available new anymore and besides, I'm sure they would be expensive. I get them used cheap off eBay. Last time was a bank of 3 from a Goldwing 6 for about $25. Can't beat that, about $8 a coil, lol. The more complete the set, the better. This one came with everything, the plug wires and the pigtail to connect into the Honda harness .....

The pigtail was cut up to make smaller ones that would plug into the Yamaha harness ......

At the very least, make sure they come with the tower caps for securing the plug wires. The Yamaha ones are a different size (larger) and won't fit .....

 

[Maddog2201]

I don't know where you are, but I've never had much issue getting parts for old Honda's, I even can still get clutch cables for the xs, I've gotten a few now. I'll see how I go, otherwise it'll be a trip across town

 

[5twins]

Well, maybe you still can buy it new, but I'm sure it's very expensive. I consider the XS a "budget" bike. I like the way many alternative low cost parts can be fitted.

 

[Maddog2201]

That's fair enough, this bike is my daily to uni, so if I'm spending a bit to make it reliable that's fine. I enjoy riding it so I'm happy to put in the time and funds

 

[Maddog2201]

No luck getting parts from Honda, big RIP, harley don't have their type on in stock anywhere, looks like it'll be Ebay for me, going to put a post up in my local riders group, see if anyone has one they'll sell me, here's hoping.

 

[Maddog2201]

Update for those still following at home. I got my hands on an old second hand Honda Dual output coil at about 3Ohms on the primary, good looking unit if a little big, so I had to entirely re organise how it all fit under the tank. I removed the Condensors, because Relays are cheap anyway, and if it kills it no big loss, but it's worth trying, I couldn't see a difference in the spark with or without them, but I also figure simpler is better.

I found a lot of bad earths that made me cringe, a lot of the wiring I did on this section made me cringe, when I re built the loom I didn't remake all my earths properly, so I'll probably be going through in the near future and fixing all of that. I think the most heinous thing was how badly earthed the Pamco was, so I split the three wire loom coming from the box, pulled the earth out and ran it directly to the negative terminal on the battery, fixed all my other grounding points as well.

Not the first time I've looked back at my wiring from the past and thought "How'd this even work in the first place", but damn, it's getting a beautiful fat blue spark now, which is a relief considering the amount of work put in. Haven't ridden it yet as it's raining.

 

[Jan_P]

Yes Sir
That is in many cases a step in the right direction ..most often a solution

pulled the earth out and ran it directly to the negative terminal on the battery, fixed all my other grounding points as well.
but damn, it's getting a beautiful fat blue spark now,

I would if this does not fix it .. As a test also run the positive directly to ignition and coil --- It can not be left there ..permanently
( perhaps a switch )
Then It would be more likely the Physics into the ignition " Pamco " is right. It is still not certain but more likely
Which ( " Pamco " ) can have more difficult to find problems . In severe cases
At least i my view more difficult to find Heat dependent ..level dependent . vibration dependent .. and so.

 

[Maddog2201]

Finally got a chance to ride the bike again, no rain tonight, and we're on a winner here. Out on the road, idle right up to 6500K RPM smooth and strong, now it's down to carbie tuning to get the rest. Left and right are slightly out of sync, and they're a bastard to get synced up with the Mikuni VM34's. But happy days, I can do 110 on the highway and overtake with comfidence again.

One oddity, when accelerating at the 4500K RPM mark the Blinker dash LED will flick on, not sure if it's just vibration from the motor rattling the contact on the blinker can, or if it's something I should be concerned about electrically. I'll be getting a hand held Digital Osilloscope soon, when I do I'll do some data logging on a few different electrical circuits and see what's going on, if I can see anything at all. Might have to check more of this wiring loom now that I've seen the worst of what I did.

Cheers for the assistance gents, I'd buy you a beer if you were in my country

 

[Jan_P]

Yes Sir
right up to 6500K RPM smooth and strong, --- I would be satisfied with that
Are we talking 110 km / h or 110 mph
Dont you use km / h down under if so these machines have more in them even with bad compression.
130 at least not stretching anything without going for it.. or is it 110 the cruising speed if so OK
I dont know these carburetors and are not qualified at carburetors over all
But checking the spark plugs can be a good thing . not running to lean

If you measure the signals with an oscilloscope I would be interested to see if there is any ripple or spikes on the ignition in data
Power and trigger lines
At this point in time perhaps the mid range rev 3 - 5000 can be the most interesting.
But other rev.s as well
Reason being that signal filtering and software smoothing can be factors further on. for other ignitions

There is a rubber grommet for wiring going into the headlamp that can be gone --edge have cut into the wires.
An inspection there is a good thing to do when the dash starts to blink.

 

[Maddog2201]

110km/h is cruising speed on the highway, I'm also at a disadvantage because I'm running a hog wheel, so it's smaller than standard. I'd like to find a standard wheel but it seems near impossible