1. Dismiss Notice
  2. Hey Facebook people... We've created a group for XS650.com members to connect. Check it out!
    Dismiss Notice

Permanent Magnet Alternator

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by Travis, Oct 14, 2009.

  1. Travis

    Travis Staff Member Staff Member

  2. inxs

    inxs xx

    2,265
    23
    38
    - ja - works well - used an RD350 stator/rotor w/o the pickup, an adapter plate, a rec/reg, a dual coil and a cam pick-up pamco ignition - took the 3 white wires, the earth and the neutral light wire to a 6 way plug...the 3 white wires go to your new rec/reg (eg rd, sr...)...from here you can go 2 ways - with battery or w/o...

    - with...take power cable from rec/reg to batt/fuse box/ batt relay via a 20 amp fuse

    without...remove battery and box and starter motor and cabling...feed through a 20amp fuse from the rec/reg to a capacitor min 10000uF and 25volt (eg from a later model ktm) and to the fuse box

    - i took the opportunity to completely renew and simplify the wiring...took all the relays etc out and installed a spade terminal fuse box...i have gone batteryless and kickstart only, have pods on my carbs and a big open space under my seat - i have had no problems with this setup and have several mates also running this conversion both with and without battery with no apparent problems...

    - recommended...
     
  3. Travis

    Travis Staff Member Staff Member

    Thanks for the info. Did you make the adaptor plate for the stator yourself? Any problems when mounting the new permanent magnet rotor to the crank? How about issues with the woodruff key? Did you use the rectifier/regulator from an RD350 or just buy a new one specified for a permanent magnet setup?
     
  4. inxs

    inxs xx

    2,265
    23
    38
    - used this for an adapter plate http://www.cokaste.de/4655/4682.html
    i also have the sump fitted auto oil filter you can see

    - RD permag trouble shooting-from yamaman- trouble shooting

    - rotor went straight onto the crank - if you use a key then the one from the rotor as the slot is wider, step the key down for the narrower crank slot

    - used a wheel to mark timing from TDC - timing wheel

    - have used several different rec/regs..RD/SR/ER6N/GSXR6..i figure that for my simplified system any rec/reg from a higher revving sport machine fitted with permanent magnet alternator should work, considering most xses wouldnt be pulling 8.5k, and pete from pamco asured me that his ignition will work with any rec/reg setup - i could be wrong

    - the rec/reg will need mounting where it can get plenty of air flow as these babies produce power right from the first spin and dont stop..i mounted mine on the exposed inner rear guard-here its not fully wired in yet, power to fusebox and earth to come, and the capacitor has been relocated and replaced with a screw fitting one from a KTM

    [​IMG]
     
  5. Travis

    Travis Staff Member Staff Member

    That's great info inxs. Thanks. I might have to do this on my current project.
     
  6. Travis

    Travis Staff Member Staff Member

  7. inxs

    inxs xx

    2,265
    23
    38
    - some pics of my permag alternator...batteryless, simpler wiring

    - the adapter
    [​IMG]
    - the rd stator
    [​IMG]
    - fitted
    [​IMG]
    - 5 pole rec-reg
    [​IMG]
    - low resistance dual coil
    [​IMG]
    - fuse box
    [​IMG]
    - pamco ign
    [​IMG]
    - similar to my wiring
    [​IMG]
    ...although i have a fuse box, indicators, horn and both brake lights
     
  8. inxs

    inxs xx

    2,265
    23
    38
    - rec-regs come in many forms...you should be able to use any r-r from later model high revving sports bikes running permag

    ...5 pole...
    -with wires-3 yellow or white are the 3 field cables from the alternator, the other 2 are positive and earth​
    -with plug fitting-the lower 3 are for the field wire, top left is positive, top right is earth​

    ...6 pole...
    -wired, 3 yellow or white are field ... positive ...negative ... the extra is for a voltage sensor, yamaha and kawasaki are usually brown, honda black and suzuiki orange​
    -plug, lower 3 are field,top left is usually positive, centre voltage sensor, top right negative​

    -the voltage sensor wire can be capped or connected to positive - in battery systems doing this after the ignition switch avoids risking draining the battery​

    ...7 pole...
    -wired, 3 field, 2 positive, 2 negative - join pos to pos and neg to neg​

    ...8 pole...
    -wired, 3 field, 2 pos, 2 neg, 1 starter voltage sensor - you can cap the vs kabel​
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2009
  9. inxs

    inxs xx

    2,265
    23
    38
    - note...removing the pickup from the alternator means using a cam-based timing system like the pamco i used

    - if you use a key for the rotor you will have to modify it as the RD and XS keys are different thicknesses
     
  10. yamaman

    yamaman xs650 addict

    731
    8
    16
    Always more than one way to skin a cat INXS..

    My bike has a RD rotor, also a RD pick up coil is mounted on the stator plate!
    This is triggered by one of the stock RD firing tangs (second one removed) on the rotor
    This triggers a custom made CDI box (I imagine you could probably use a myriad of CDI boxes, as long as it came from a 4 stroke) CDI box fires a RD dual output coil (with a kill switch in the circuit). That's the entirety of my electrical system!
     
  11. inxs

    inxs xx

    2,265
    23
    38
    - yes, thats the problem with cats, compounded by their 9 lives...also as soon as youve finally finished one theres another standing there before you...

    - im always suspect about electronic ignitions, when they crap out you cant fix them on the side of the road-i always carry a double lobe cam and single points plate set up with me in my tool kit so if my pamco craps out i can get myself going again...not so easy on my rephase, but i do have a single lobe cam and a modified twin points plate
     
  12. yamaman

    yamaman xs650 addict

    731
    8
    16
    It's one thing to be wary of old style electronics, that they can & will let you down is almost a certainty!
    If say for example a KTM CDI was useable (and I can't see why not) you would have to do some major damage to make it die.........If they can handle the punishment they get bouncing around Africa, they'll handle most of what a XS will throw at it!

    Crank fired ignition is almost absolute, set & forget! Too many variables with cam fired & mechanical advance! Plus all that extra shit you don't need!

    The only trouble I've ever had with mine was when I welded on the frame without disconnecting it...........Sure, that fried the box, but I was able to get that repaired quickly & cheaply...Can't blame the CDI box for me being a dickhead!

    My bike has no kick or electric starter, & no battery. Starts straight away every time with a decent shove!
     
  13. yamaman

    yamaman xs650 addict

    731
    8
    16
    Of course, if you had a crank fired ignition, you could have the points ignition ready & waiting.....Swap a couple of connectors & fire her up again!
     
  14. inxs

    inxs xx

    2,265
    23
    38
    - i hear what you say about crank fired ignitions, in principle its correct...with a chain driven cam youre never going to completely remove minute timing inconsistencies even with a crank fired ign due to surging...i chose the way i went because ive seen too many electronic ignitions leave riders stranded, maybe im being anally analogue, i dont like or trust things i cant fix - govt included...give us a pictologue and write up of what you have done please
     
  15. inxs, I share your concerns with electronic ignitions. They work great, no adjustments for wear required. When I installed a pamco, I thought I better carry a set of points and cam just in case of a failure. Well, last summer my bike quit while out riding. The pamco had failed due to a pc board mounting screw vibrating loose. So, on the side of the road, I removed the electronic and put in the points and cam, and was able to drive home.

    Pete is a 100% guy and replaced the pamco unit under warranty.
     
  16. inxs

    inxs xx

    2,265
    23
    38
    - thanx for the tip...better use locktite on that screw then
     
  17. You bet, the pamco units all come with locktite on the threads now, and I confirmed my new unit has the locktite.
     
  18. yamaman

    yamaman xs650 addict

    731
    8
    16
    Well that's the beauty of my system, nothing at all to fall off, except the rotor :yikes:

    And you can ride around for the next 10 years with a complete working points system (twin lobe cam so you can use the same coil) in place ready to go for insurance :laugh: Bet you'll never need it though! :thumbsup:
     
  19. inxs

    inxs xx

    2,265
    23
    38
    - write 'er up-with pics, always good to have options
     
  20. yamaman

    yamaman xs650 addict

    731
    8
    16
    Will do as soon as my puller returns from whichever dark corner it's resting in!

    I see you have a early model Pamco, your probably already on to it, but the magnets fell out of the early ones. Pete supplied a thinner nut & a large washer to hold the magnets in after that........Has yours been done? Cheers
     

Share This Page