Pma conversion, and wiring problems

[Liam_macauley]

Hello all,
I previously made a post about my 81xs a few months ago, and talked about the charging issues I had. I took it to a mechanic to have it diagnosed, and was told that the stator went bad, and shorted out the wiring. They told me that I could just get a new stator, and buy a used main harness to wire it back up. I’ve decided I want to go the PMA route, and get rid of the stator all together, as it would cost damn near the same to do either. This will solve my charging issues. However, it won’t solve my wiring issue. I’ve looked at wiring harnesses, new and used, and just don’t really know what to do here. Thought about making my own harness and re-wiring the whole bike, but even that seems like a bad idea on my part. What should I do?? Also, any recommendations on which pma to get? Was thinking of just doing the one from TC Bro’s.
Unfortunately, money is also a factor in this. I’m a college student who doesn’t have a lot of money so any chances to save are appreciated. TIA

 

[itschrisb]

There is a member on here @DADDYGCYCLES that makes and sells harnesses. I’d imagine he could help you out as far as wiring goes. PMA wise Hughs Handbuilt seems to have a good product. https://www.vape.eu/en_US/en/yamaha-xs650-15kg-rotor-complete-system This as far as I’ve read seems to be the better option. You can go a DIY route with the Banshee setup. But also do some reading and see if the PMA is actually the way you want to go as it’s not a perfect system. Ask around in the classified section for a stator maybe you’ll get lucky on a used one.

 

[Liam_macauley]

Great info. Thank you

 

[650Skull]

Had a look at the other thread..........Several responses and some suggestions.........no response to the respondents........

Money spent on the mechanic could have been spent on tools to diagnose your problem from the help that is available on here...........Without proper diagnostics just spending money on replacing parts or systems is a recipe to wasting money ........

No explanation why a new harness would be needed????

Stators very rarely fail............the rotor is the usual culprit and there is a member here, who rewinds them for a very reasonable price.......1/4 of the cost of a PMA.

 

[Paul Sutton]

PMA is OK if you use quality parts, but on the XS650 I would stick with the alternator. I have never heard of an XS stator failure but rotor failure is quite common after 40 Years and hip replacements after 70 Years. See 650Skull's comments above and recheck that stator and see if the rotor is really the issue.

 

[Liam_macauley]

To 650Skull,
Yes I agree. I should have tested it myself to figure it out. Not wrong at all there. However, my time is pretty limited, and I am not good with electrical by any means. You’re probably right that it’s just a rotor, but would I be hurting anything anyways by just converting to a pma? I don’t really see a negative other than the cost. Plus my feeling about it is too, that once I have the pma on it, it’s one less thing to worry about failing, being that it’s brand new (not that it couldn’t potentially fail). As well with the wiring, the previous owner completely ruined the stock harness, so badly that I had to ground a wire to the forks to even start the bike. It’s also just a mess on the bike, I figured replacing it wasn’t a terrible idea.
To Paul Sutton,
You’re also right that I should check it. Where should I start with testing? Like I mentioned above, I am no electrical wiz nor do I know much about how these systems work.
Sorry for such late responses, college has kept me pretty busy. Thank you both for the input

 

[itschrisb]

The problem I’m seeing with just going ahead and replacing everything with a PMA system is you didn’t find out the root of the issue first. So you’re potentially spending way more than needed and introducing a new variable to the equation. People have failures with the PMA system also. I was hell bent on doing a PMA and ignition conversion on my Xs650 until I started reading more and more into and realized the stock charging system is more than enough. There are a few mods you can do to make it more reliable also. A PMA isn’t plug and play either so if electrical and wiring isn’t your strong suit take that into consideration also.

what exactly is your issue because I didn’t see the original thread.

as far as the wiring goes what exactly do you mean it’s so bad you had to ground to the fork? There are grounds in the headlight bucket from the factory so that’s not that unusual. Grounding location doesn’t really matter, you just need to have grounds.

 

[Liam_macauley]

Good point about the pma. Really insightful. The issue is that the charging system has failed, and I was told by a mechanic- take this how you like- that the stator has burned out, and took some of the wiring along with it. On top of the, the issue with the wring is that it is a complete mess and there are bare wires all over the bike. The whole grounding to the forks thing is that I have to hold a wire with my hand to the fork everyone I wanna start it. Somebody went through and started to take the wiring apart to simplify it for the build, but never finished, and just left a huge mess.

 

[itschrisb]

Good point about the pma. Really insightful. The issue is that the charging system has failed, and I was told by a mechanic- take this how you like- that the stator has burned out, and took some of the wiring along with it. On top of the, the issue with the wring is that it is a complete mess and there are bare wires all over the bike. The whole grounding to the forks thing is that I have to hold a wire with my hand to the fork everyone I wanna start it. Somebody went through and started to take the wiring apart to simplify it for the build, but never finished, and just left a huge mess.

well in my not so professional opinion I’d say start with a new harness, either a used OEM one, a new OEM one or a simplified one from someone like @DADDYGCYCLES. Get the bike wired up properly and THEN see what’s going on with the charging system.

have you looked into the charging system yourself at all? There are a few very informative DIYs on here and other forums.

And to make your life easier take whatever ground wire you keep grounding to the fork to start the bike and just permanently ground it to the frame somewhere. Ground wires need to always be grounded and you can never have enough.

what year is your bike? What part of the wiring harness got taken out by the stator? Do you have any photos?

 

[650Skull]

Unfortunately, money is also a factor in this. I’m a college student who doesn’t have a lot of money so any chances to save are appreciated. TIA

Not being a dick just reiterating.......

If your on a budget..............

Mechanic costs $$$$$$

Money spent on a mechanic can be spent on tools............in this case a multi-meter........ $30 or so............

time to test a rotor and stator less than 1/2 of an hour, maybe closer to an hour for the first time

those that can and will help, (on here), do not have faith in Mechanics advice, not because the mechanic doesn't know what he is doing, more the fact that we haven't had diagnostic information to confirm the said mechanics prognosis...........so advice on broken parts cannot be given.......

Advice on XS650.com...............Free

Owning 40 year old bikes, especially one that has been butchered is going to cost money and time.......

Just facts.......just because you don't know how to do electrics or aren't mechanically minded then XS650,com can and will help............people have come on here and rebuilt engines and they didn't know how to change the oil..........

NOTE; Do not ground/earth through the forks...........forks are connected to the frame through bearings.......this can cause an arching process on the bearings........not good........also means the grounding process is weak and could course other problems...........

 

[Paul Sutton]

Do you have a multimeter, even a cheap $5 one? If yes then we can guide you to test the stator and rotor to confirm the mechanics findings. I am not saying the mechanic is wrong, I just think it would be helpful for you to see how he reached his conclusion by you double checking.

I have a cheap $5 meter and I use it a lot, in fact I prefer it because if it breaks it will not make me curse. I have a more expensive meter with some extra functions that are good for specific tests, but the cheapo meter will do most common tests and is good enough for checking out an alternator.

 

[Jim]

I mostly agree with what's previously been said. Although people claim they've had a bad stator, I'm doubtful. It's a robust unit that's extremely reliable.... and I can't see it burning up the wiring... it just ain't that strong.

I'm gonna address your situation... and agree with skull. You have a bike that's over 40 yrs old. Fact is it's gonna break from time to time. I spent a year and a half restoring an 80SG to like new condition.... and I currently have the carbs off chasing gremlins. These bikes can be made reliable, taking into account it's age. What this means to you in practical terms is time and/or money. If your not willing to learn to do the work yourself, it's gonna get expensive real fast... and you're down to trusting that someone else did the job correctly.
On the other hand, doing the work yourself is much cheaper and much more rewarding.
So it comes down to 3 choices:
1. Pay a ton of money and take your chances
2. Learn to maintain it and enjoy having a classic vintage bike you can take anywhere knowing your own skills will get you home.
3. Sell it on to someone willing and able to take care of it. I'm just being honest here.... perhaps owning a 40 yr old classic isn't for you. Being at college means funds are low. I get that. There's plenty of newer reliable bikes out there that will start every time and reliably get you home without nickel and dimin' you to death. If all you want is a daily driver, this would be your best option.

I'd strongly suggest you consider these 3 options before you go any further. Option 1 doesn't really sound doable given your current situation. Doing it yourself (#2) is gonna require a commitment on your part to listen and learn. #3 is your choice if you can't commit to option 2.

Trust me, if you choose to learn, you're at the right place. You'll never run across a better bunch to teachers than this place.
Do let us know what you decide.

 

[Liam_macauley]

Agreed on all parts with the previous comments. I should be learning how to do this. It’s not that I’m unwilling or don’t care to “listen and learn” it’s that I don’t know what to do and I’m seeking advice. I haven’t discredited anyone nor have I said I wasn’t willing to try myself. I know you’re not trying to attack me Jim, but it’s not like I’m sitting around hoping someone will just give me the golden answer that solves all my problems lol. I also have the problem of not having my bike with me at my college, so this is a few weeks out before I start any grunt work to try and get it back to running right. As of now, I’m trying to pool ideas and see what the more experienced people have to say to see which route I should take. If the general consensus is that I should learn and figure it out myself, I have no problem doing that. If anything, that’ll be easier for me down the road, as I’ll be able to test electronics otherwise that might fail. I appreciate that you guys are looking out for my bank, as you understand that I’m in college and don’t have money just to blow. I also appreciate that a lot of you have offered to guide me through this so that I’m not just wasting my money on the word of a mechanic. I’m glad I’m a member on this site, and lucky that y’all are willing to help me out. Thank you all for reading, commenting, and discussing with me the play book I should be reading before I blindly spend money. It’s really appreciated. I’d love to learn and figure these things out, just need somewhat of a guiding hand to get me there. I think testing and solving is the way I want to go.

 

[Liam_macauley]

As well, not that it really matters, the mechanical aspect of this bike isn’t a problem to me. I’ve rebuild motors and done all sorts of mechanical jobs, it’s just the siding I’ve never played with. Where do I find the forums about testing rotor/stator? This is the part I’m getting caught up on. I know the info is available, and am completely willing to learn it, I just need to be pointed in the right direction to access it. thank you guys

 

[Liam_macauley]

Wiring not siding in my above comment

 

[Jim]

I know you’re not trying to attack me Jim, but it’s not like I’m sitting around hoping someone will just give me the golden answer that solves all my problems lol.

Apologies if I came off sounding that way. It wasn't my intent. Was just trying to prod you into a realistic decision.
In the Tech section there's a thread on troubleshooting charging issues. I've copied that here (comment #3), along with a few how-to videos on troubleshooting.

 

[Liam_macauley]

Awesome. Thank you Jim. That’s what I was looking for.

 

[itschrisb]

I just picked up this ‘81 Xs650 bobber that had no spark and no charge issue. Started digging in and found 2 broken wires. Honestly man it’s all really intimidating until you just start and figure it out. Wiring is easier than it seems. Figuring out a wiring diagram is the best thing you can do. YouTube is your best friend. It all starts to click at one point.

 

[lakeview]

We need photos of the bike to really be focussed on assisting you. For example, if the bike is a bobber, an abbreviated harness may be best. If it is a bike basically stock, a new factory type harness is under a c note from Mikes.
Per Jim's comments, a 4 or 5 year old fuel injected Honda single is really reliable transportation......

 

[XSLeo]

On the 81's they use an electronic ignition. This ignition uses a magnet in the rotor to trip the sensor on the stater. This signal is sent to the control box to tell it when to fire the plugs.
If you replace the stock charging system with a PMA set up you will also have to replace the ignition system. Some PMA kits have an ignition system built into them, some don't. If the PMA you get don't, them you have to spend a few hundred more to replace the ignition.
If you shop around you can find the parts you need for reasonable prices.
If you look up near the top of the page and click where it says TECH this will take you to a list of topics. Scroll down through the list. You will find how to check out your system in the Electrical section.
Leo