Not a myth. "Might be something close to a myth". I glanced around a little and couldn't find it but the best I remember it, we learned that modern screws, drivers, or maybe both, were essentially equivalent for phillips and JIS. Modern phillips grind fits anything, or something along those lines...
-
Enjoy XS650.com? Consider making a donation to help support the site.
XS650.com receives a small share of sales from some links on this page, but direct donations have a much greater impact on keeping this site going.
Preferred Sizes, tools and other types of hardware
- Thread starter MaxPete
- Start date
-
- Tags
- hardware preferred sizes tools
Howdy!
We are having a chat about tools on the ST Owners website and I joined in (I like tools) and wrote a note about some issues which I thought might be of interest to the XS650 group as well.
Have you ever noticed that some socket sets do not come with certain size sockets.
In most engineering design work there are "preferred" sizes which most designers select. Moving off those preferred sizes is discouraged because the cost of components goes up dramatically - for virtually no added functionality. For example, most Imperial fasteners normally come in 1/4" increments of length. So, you will find 1/2", 3/4". 1", 1-1/4" and 1-1/2" long bolts easy to find. Just try to find a 1-1/8" long bolt (in ANY size) and you'll likely be stumped. The fastener manufacturers will be happy to make them for you - but they'll charge an arm and leg for them, so you would need a pretty compelling reason to select that length in a given application. The same goes for almost any standard item such as seals, bearings, I- and H-beams, roll pins, etc.
On the issue of hex sockets, in my work we normally would select a bolt with a 13, 15, 17 or 19 mm hex head whereas on the Japanese bikes I own, a commonly used sizes seem to be 12, 14, 16 and 18 mm. As a result, I have had to buy a selection of 12, 14, 16 and 18 mm hex sockets in shorty, medium and deep with 3/8" and 1/2" drives to suit my ratchets. The same goes for open and box-end wrenches (aka spanners) and many other items in the mechanical world. I guess the preferred sizes in Japan are 12, 14, 16 and 18 mm rather than 13, 15, 17 and 19 mm - but as noted above, the square drive sizes are the same everywhere in the world (thank goodne$$).
There are other differences in hardware and tools in various countries.
In Japan, they have adopted the JIS (Japan Industrial Standard) screw head design that is used on our Yamaha bikes, as well as on ANYTHING else built in Japan. The JIS is a much better design than the Phillips even though the two seem identical at first glance. If you are working on an XS650 (and who on this site isn't) you would really benefit from getting yourself a set of JIS drivers. They are not expensive or hard to find - just look on eBay for "Vessel" brand JIS screwdrivers - and be sure to include the big #3 silver-handled "Impacta" driver which is perfect for removing the usually f@cked-up clutch basket screws.
In Canada, we use Robertson screws for anything wooden like boats, decks on houses, furniture etc., for electrical panels and house wiring or for self-tapped metal construction. Conversely, this type of fastener is pretty rare outside of the country. I think in the US, they are known as "square drive" screws but they're not often used. I must say, the Robertson is also much superior to the Phillips because the fastener won't strip and can be loaded onto the screwdriver and it won't fall off which makes one-handed installations waaaay faster and easier. Robertson drivers are not expensive and are available at any hardware store in the country in a wide array of lengths and styles including 1/4" hex-drive bits for use in screw guns.
Also, there are only four sizes of square sockets in the heads of Robertson fasteners and the matching drivers are always colour-coded so that you know which one to use. They go in order of size: yellow, green, red and black and so it is always easy to pick the correct one out of a crowded toolbox. In Canadian house wiring, every single ground screw inside a box is a "red" size and every single terminal screw on a device such as a receptacle or light switch will be a "green" size Robertson - which is convenient because it means that you can do this work with very few tools in your tool-belt.
When I was a service engineer for a Toronto-based company that built big injection molding machines in the 1980's, our electrical panels were assembled with Robertson screws and the personnel at our customer's US plants absolutely hated that because the service people couldn't easily find tools and replacement screws. I started packing a few boxes of common size screws and several sets of screwdrivers with me on business trips and boy, can you ever make a friend fast by giving a mechanic a new tool - especially one that is a bright colour and sort of unique. Within a few weeks, it was noticed by management that the operational "up" time of our machines soared in those plants and we figured that it was simply because the service folks liked working with their odd-ball new screwdrivers.
The square drive screw head was invented much earlier by Cummings in the US, but it was patented, commercialized and named by P.L. Robertson near Toronto around 1910. Henry Ford used them to assemble the bodies of the earliest Model T automobiles. Henry calculated that use of the Robertson screw saved two hours of labour in building each of his cars and so he wanted to actually buy the design and patents from Robertson and have an exclusive on the new type of screw. However, Robertson wouldn't sell and simply wanted to supply screws and drivers to Henry - but Ford wouldn't agree to that arrangement and so that is why the US auto industry adopted to the inferior Phillips screw subsequent to about 1912.
More recently, the auto industry has adopted the Torx head which shares many of the benefits of the Robertson, but is much more costly to make.
Sorry to get so far off-topic from XS650's, but I do like tools and hardware.
Pete
G'day Pete,
What ever you do do not buy a French car as they use 7mm, 9mm, and 11mm.
I was given a Citroen when I was single and living in the Highlands of Papua New Guinea and the exhaust manifold gasket needed replacing.
Of course I had everything A/F and most needed Metric for Japanese and German.
Someone suggested I try 7/16A/F close but as it was exhaust very rusted and tight and kept slipping.
Eventually I had an 11mm Ring Open/End arrive from Australia.
Why do the French do it..................................."Because We Can"
GeeDub
Vive la difference!!
Howdy!
We are having a chat about tools on the ST Owners website and I joined in (I like tools) and wrote a note about some issues which I thought might be of interest to the XS650 group as well.
Have you ever noticed that some socket sets do not come with certain size sockets.
In most engineering design work there are "preferred" sizes which most designers select. Moving off those preferred sizes is discouraged because the cost of components goes up dramatically - for virtually no added functionality. For example, most Imperial fasteners normally come in 1/4" increments of length. So, you will find 1/2", 3/4". 1", 1-1/4" and 1-1/2" long bolts easy to find. Just try to find a 1-1/8" long bolt (in ANY size) and you'll likely be stumped. The fastener manufacturers will be happy to make them for you - but they'll charge an arm and leg for them, so you would need a pretty compelling reason to select that length in a given application. The same goes for almost any standard item such as seals, bearings, I- and H-beams, roll pins, etc.
On the issue of hex sockets, in my work we normally would select a bolt with a 13, 15, 17 or 19 mm hex head whereas on the Japanese bikes I own, a commonly used sizes seem to be 12, 14, 16 and 18 mm. As a result, I have had to buy a selection of 12, 14, 16 and 18 mm hex sockets in shorty, medium and deep with 3/8" and 1/2" drives to suit my ratchets. The same goes for open and box-end wrenches (aka spanners) and many other items in the mechanical world. I guess the preferred sizes in Japan are 12, 14, 16 and 18 mm rather than 13, 15, 17 and 19 mm - but as noted above, the square drive sizes are the same everywhere in the world (thank goodne$$).
There are other differences in hardware and tools in various countries.
In Japan, they have adopted the JIS (Japan Industrial Standard) screw head design that is used on our Yamaha bikes, as well as on ANYTHING else built in Japan. The JIS is a much better design than the Phillips even though the two seem identical at first glance. If you are working on an XS650 (and who on this site isn't) you would really benefit from getting yourself a set of JIS drivers. They are not expensive or hard to find - just look on eBay for "Vessel" brand JIS screwdrivers - and be sure to include the big #3 silver-handled "Impacta" driver which is perfect for removing the usually f@cked-up clutch basket screws.
In Canada, we use Robertson screws for anything wooden like boats, decks on houses, furniture etc., for electrical panels and house wiring or for self-tapped metal construction. Conversely, this type of fastener is pretty rare outside of the country. I think in the US, they are known as "square drive" screws but they're not often used. I must say, the Robertson is also much superior to the Phillips because the fastener won't strip and can be loaded onto the screwdriver and it won't fall off which makes one-handed installations waaaay faster and easier. Robertson drivers are not expensive and are available at any hardware store in the country in a wide array of lengths and styles including 1/4" hex-drive bits for use in screw guns.
Also, there are only four sizes of square sockets in the heads of Robertson fasteners and the matching drivers are always colour-coded so that you know which one to use. They go in order of size: yellow, green, red and black and so it is always easy to pick the correct one out of a crowded toolbox. In Canadian house wiring, every single ground screw inside a box is a "red" size and every single terminal screw on a device such as a receptacle or light switch will be a "green" size Robertson - which is convenient because it means that you can do this work with very few tools in your tool-belt.
When I was a service engineer for a Toronto-based company that built big injection molding machines in the 1980's, our electrical panels were assembled with Robertson screws and the personnel at our customer's US plants absolutely hated that because the service people couldn't easily find tools and replacement screws. I started packing a few boxes of common size screws and several sets of screwdrivers with me on business trips and boy, can you ever make a friend fast by giving a mechanic a new tool - especially one that is a bright colour and sort of unique. Within a few weeks, it was noticed by management that the operational "up" time of our machines soared in those plants and we figured that it was simply because the service folks liked working with their odd-ball new screwdrivers.
The square drive screw head was invented much earlier by Cummings in the US, but it was patented, commercialized and named by P.L. Robertson near Toronto around 1910. Henry Ford used them to assemble the bodies of the earliest Model T automobiles. Henry calculated that use of the Robertson screw saved two hours of labour in building each of his cars and so he wanted to actually buy the design and patents from Robertson and have an exclusive on the new type of screw. However, Robertson wouldn't sell and simply wanted to supply screws and drivers to Henry - but Ford wouldn't agree to that arrangement and so that is why the US auto industry adopted to the inferior Phillips screw subsequent to about 1912.
More recently, the auto industry has adopted the Torx head which shares many of the benefits of the Robertson, but is much more costly to make.
Sorry to get so far off-topic from XS650's, but I do like tools and hardware.
Pete
Hi Pete,
40+ years fighting Canadian house wiring and it never occurred to me that all power screws are green robertson and all ground screws are red.
Just that I always needed both of them.
The real bastard is the Phillips heads that hold the switches into the boxes and that they are mostly painted over
so that I need to carry 2 sizes of Phillips and a pointy thing to poke the paint out.
I once worked with a guy who used to design for Robertson.
Said his last job there was developing Robertson head pockets that were bi-square to look more "modern" and thus have better sales appeal.
Had to work on existing Robertson drivers and just like the originals, not fall off the driver while being put into place.
That was 30+ years ago and I ain't seen a bi-square Robertson screw yet.
But Fred - those Phillips screws are actually green Robertson’s (try it - really!!). Phillips will fit - but who cares - they rubbish.
..and yes, you often have to dig out the paint that some stupid git slopped all over them, but I promise you, in the True White North - the screws that hold receptacles and switches into those little galvanized boxes really truly are green Robertson’s.
Now, the crappy little painted screws that hold on the decorative cover plates - they’re slots and they suck.
My friend's father was Hungarian. He had a Pugeot and decided to make it his project car. Three years and two heart attacks, later and multiple intermittent problems, he abandoned the Pugeot. But, I wish I jotted down some of the creative and innovative curse words, I heard come out of him in half English and Half Hungarian...
Hi Pete,
not in the kitchen wall multi-outlet in our newly acquired bungalow they ain't! I guess bikes ain't the only things that have a dreaded PO.
Painted over Phillips head screws, I swear. Dig the little crosses out clean with a scriber to make sure.
Not IDENTICAL Phillips though and at least one of them was a drywall screw. WTF, I coped. And threw the drywall screw away.
No problem with the slotted head cover plate screws though. One of my custom ground carb jet screwdrivers fits them perfectly.
Last week, I picked up a 33pc set of security bits from Tractor Supply, $14.95. It has almost every conceivable screw head covered.
A fair number of Japanese spark plugs are 18mm, I have a deep 18mm that I turned down on the outside I think it was an early gixxer 1100 that required it. Used bike didn't have the kit spark plug socket and it was a bee itch to get at those plugs. I've always liked that the side filter nut is 13/16" on the XS so the spark plug socket will fit. Spark plug hex sizes are a pain in general and many are SO buried that I often buy the replacement plugs to confirm the required hex before F'ing up some deeply hidden spark plug.
Yamaha introduced the JIS about 1974, earlier bikes use 13mm bolt heads. Result the used XS650 bolt bin assortments I've developed have fasteners with both 12mm AND 13mm heads!
Drives me "nuts" that the Chinese cheap bolt sources don't sell many JIS spec fasteners. A reasonable stainless replacement for some of our dome nuts have eluded me. The "smaller" chinese button head bolts are all over the place on wrench sizes used.
Trivia; there is such a thing as JIS metric o-ring specs also! more
US RV and trailer manufacturers have long used square drive or "Robertson" fasteners, Unfortunately that does not put thoughts of "quality" to mind.
Yamaha introduced the JIS about 1974, earlier bikes use 13mm bolt heads. Result the used XS650 bolt bin assortments I've developed have fasteners with both 12mm AND 13mm heads!
Drives me "nuts" that the Chinese cheap bolt sources don't sell many JIS spec fasteners. A reasonable stainless replacement for some of our dome nuts have eluded me. The "smaller" chinese button head bolts are all over the place on wrench sizes used.
Trivia; there is such a thing as JIS metric o-ring specs also! more
US RV and trailer manufacturers have long used square drive or "Robertson" fasteners, Unfortunately that does not put thoughts of "quality" to mind.
Last edited:
A fair number of Japanese spark plugs are 18mm, I have a deep 18mm that I turned down on the outside I think it was an early gixxer 1100 that required it. Used bike didn't have the kit spark plug socket and it was a bee itch to get at those plugs. I've always liked that the side filter nut is 13/16" on the XS so the spark plug socket will fit. Spark plug hex sizes are a pain in general and many are SO buried that I often buy the replacement plugs to confirm the required hex before F'ing up some deeply hidden spark plug.
Yamaha introduced the JIS about 1974, earlier bikes use 13mm bolt heads. Result the used XS650 bolt bin assortments I've developed have fasteners with both 12mm AND 13mm heads!
Drives me "nuts" that the Chinese cheap bolt sources don't sell many JIS spec fasteners. A reasonable stainless replacement for some of our dome nuts have eluded me. The "smaller" chinese button head bolts are all over the place on wrench sizes used.
Trivia; there is such a thing as JIS metric o-ring specs also! more
US RV and trailer manufacturers have long used square drive or "Robertson" fasteners, Unfortunately that does not put thoughts of "quality" to mind.
Attachments
Similar threads
