Question about wheel truing.

Mailman

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When I had my new tires mounted a couple days ago. The guy was showing me when he was spin balancing them, the front rim had a very small side to side deflection, very small but you could see it. And the rear wheel had a very small " hop " or up and down movement. The guys that worked there looked at it and didn't think it was enough to be a problem. But none the less we talked about wheel trueing ( which they do). That shop said they like to start with a brand new set of spokes. What is your experience? Is that standard practice? My spokes look to be in very nice shape with no corrosion.
 
That sounds like $$$. Polished stainless spokes will sure look nice. They probably run into rusty nipples making the job a PITA. I tried to true my Heritage Special wheels and ran into that. I parked them for cast wheels. If I get back to them, I'll probably put new stainless spokes on it. I could not tolerate the out of true wheels. It makes me crazy. Any way, I can't think of another reason. Galvanic corrosion happens to wheels/spokes.
 
Don't you tap on the spokes with a screw driver and listen for the "dead" sounding ones ? I do and just tweak em a little . Surprising how you can true a front wheel a little on a sideways wobble easily. Try it on a bicycle flipped upside down ? Mark the wobble with a felt marker and "pull" it over.
 
Hi Mailman / All:
I have an uncle who has owned a bicycle shop for many years (like around 50 years, since he was a teenager) and he taught me how to true wheels when I was a kid heading off to Europe with my 10 speed in the 1970's I trued my bike wheels every night after dinner because of bashing over the cobblestone streets in Germany and France. He does wheels for bicycles, motorcycles, horse racing sulkies, wheelchairs, even a couple of vintage aircraft - anything with spoked wheels - and the basic skills are the same for each.

In all sincerity, wheel truing simply isn't a big deal. There are a few tricks, but if you understand how spoked wheels work and go about the task methodically, it isn't rocket science and you can do it if you try.

Sit on the ground behind the rear wheel of your motorcycle and stare at how the wheel is constructed. You will note that some of the spokes go from the rim to the right side of the hub (let's call those the RH spokes) and others go to the left hand side (LH spokes). If you tighten the RH spokes and loosen the LH spokes at a given point on the circumference of the wheel - the rim around that point will shift a tiny bit to the right and vice-versa. For out-of-round adjustments (i.e. "hop") - you tighten both the LH and the RH spokes at the high spot by the same amount and if the wheel is really egg-shaped, possibly loosen both LH & RH spokes at a point 90 degrees away around the rim of the wheel.

You can assess the tension in the spokes by "plucking" them like a guitar string, or even striking them lightly with a small piece of wood. The tighter the spoke - the higher the pitch of the "note" will be when you strike it. NOTE - this works well with thinner and longer bicycle spokes than with short and large diameter motorcycle spokes. The whole idea is to wind up with approximately the same amount of tension in every spoke around the circumference of the rim.

So, those are the basic principles and here are the finer points:
  1. You must create a fixed reference point near the edge of the wheel rim - like a piece of wire attached to the fork or rear swing-arm. The end of the wire must juuussssttttt about touch the rim as you turn the wheel so that you can detect any high spots or left-right shifts. An actual wheel truing stand off the bike is better - but if you pay attention, you can do the job with the wheel on the bike.
  2. Make only very small adjustments and then observe the effect: turn the spoke nipples no more than 1/4 to 3/4 of a turn at a time and observe, or you will likely just make the problem worse.
  3. If you are making an adjustment at a given point on the wheel rim, don't try to do it with adjustments to just one or two spokes right AT that point: adjust one or two spokes on each side of the point you're trying to adjust and make a slightly smaller adjustments as you move away from that "centre" point - so that you distribute any extra spoke tension adjustments across several spokes. Again, the idea is to have about the same tension in every spoke.
  4. Get the wheel round first (remove any "hop") and THEN deal with any left-right shifts.
A potential pitfall is a spoke that has a seized nipple (sounds painful doesn't it??) - but as long as they can all be turned, you should be fine with old spokes.

My uncle taught me on a scrap wheel. I just went to a junk yard and found an old bicycle wheel, set it up in an old set of forks mounted in a vise and within an hour or so, I had it running true as a wheel on a race bike. Just go slowly, make small changes and observe the effect and be patient.

Cheers,

Pete
 
Thanks Pete for the very thourough and informative response. I may just have to take a run at this myself!
 
I just might have to grab a spare and give your advise a whirl. My bud trued mine with "v" notched 2x4's and a coat hanger. Just a slite twitch at the seam weld. Gave him a lincoln gasless welder for it.
 
I just might have to grab a spare and give your advise a whirl. My bud trued mine with "v" notched 2x4's and a coat hanger. Just a slite twitch at the seam weld. Gave him a lincoln gasless welder for it.

If it works - can I have a welder too? :cool:

Cheers,

Pete
 
Re. seized nipples: don't be lazy, take the tire, tube, and rim strip off and lube the spokes and nipples before you try to adjust. Bel-Ray 6-In-1 lubricant is great stuff for this. Spray just a little bit on each spoke end, let sit for an hour or so, and repeat; four or five cycles of this exercise won't do any harm.
 
I've built 10-15 wheels in the last few years. Yes use your favorite rust buster before you start, go around with an aluminum block and hammer, side tap all the nipples a time or two. A drill driver set on impact is a good removal starting tool, so is a hand impact. But I mostly use screw drivers One set of spokes I cut off was a front heritage special, those thin spokes/nipples were welded beyond reuse, that ended up as a 21" +1, mark and ignore the rim seam wobble. A wheel has to be pretty crooked before you will feel it. just this winter I bought an FJR rode it 200 miles first day, wasn't till I was looking at a pic of the bike I posted on a forum that I saw the mag front rim had a pretty good curb kink in it. LOL, I replaced it, but never felt any vibration from it.....
 

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What would you guys say the tolerances should be for trueness? I'm gonna guess about 1/8" from perfect on both planes, and shoot for better than that. I really don't see a need for the accuracy of a dial gauge.

Scott
 
I'm with you on no dial gauges. I mostly work with magic markers on the stand. Mark both sides, do a round of truing, once the marker is leaving marks mostly around the wheel with light pressure I call it done. Using Mikes SS spokes I figure on a round of spoke snugging after a few hundred miles. There is a wheel ready to lace in the basement, looking like a good day for it,

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Stove is going.
 
My spokes are just snug during truing then take a lap, with the wrench getting them all tight, recheck true, adjust a bit more if needed, done.
There is a video from Buchanon's their guys do about the same, it's more eyeball than dial indicators.
 
The run-out spec, up and down and side to side, from Yamaha is 2mm. That's about .079". I use a dial gauge for the side to side but just a pointer for the up-down. The bottom edge of a rim lip is usually too rough for the gauge, tire change "bite" marks account for much of that. The inner section where the bead seats is even worse, but naturally so. It's made with grooves in it to help retain the bead.

I have a simple homemade wheel stand and just use a HF magnetic base and dial gauge. Not "space shuttle" accurate obviously, but much more so than a pointer. I'm routinely and quite easily able to get the side to side true within .010". That's quite a bit better than the .079" spec, like near 8 times better. The gauge really shows the difference small spoke adjustments make.

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If you're going to be fooling with your spokes externally, I recommend you get a good spoke wrench. One of my favorites is the one made by Rowe. Unfortunately, they went out of business a few years ago but you can find them on eBay. You may also get lucky and find one collecting dust at a local dealer. That's where I got my last one. Be aware that, probably because they are out of business, there are now a ton of Chinese copies out there. The real deal will have the "Rowe" name stamped on it .....

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I've yet to find a spoke it won't fit.

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Like Gary, I do most of my spoke tightening with screwdrivers, then have a final go-around with the spoke wrench. I can more easily judge spoke tightness by the feel of the wrench than with the screwdrivers. Also, many times the screwdriver no longer works for the last bit of tightening because the spoke has come through the bottom of the nipple. You can't get the screwdriver blade in the slot anymore. I'm going to make up some special "spoke screwdrivers" though. I'm going to simply grind a notch in the center of the screwdriver blade so the spoke can stick into it if need be.
 
Good thread, might get the courage to do my next set of wheels. I used to know a guy in MPLS who would true them after I laced them for $20 so I never took the time to learn. We are now in Idaho so instead of finding someone you can trust it's time tearn
 
As mentioned, it's really not hard, just takes some time. But to me, this is "hobby time" which is fun time. It doesn't fall into the "time is money" category. And I think you will end up doing a better job than somebody at a shop who does fall under the "time is money" constraints. You will get faster and better at it with each wheel you do too.
 
Might as well stick these in here.

http://www.xs650chopper.com/2009/12/how-to-lace-a-wheel-from-scratch/
http://www.xs650.com/threads/wheels-truing.37193/

... the "time is money" category. And I think you will end up doing a better job than somebody at a shop who does fall under the "time is money" constraints...

That brings back some '70s "shop combat" memories.

Pull a service ticket: Replace front wheel rim on a CB-350.
The factory servicing book shows this to be a 1.5 hour job.
Shop labor rate is $8/hour. So, a $12 job.
Of which the commission mechanic gets 50%, or $6.

You better hustle, or you'll starve...
 
I'm with you on no dial gauges. I mostly work with magic markers on the stand. Mark both sides, do a round of truing, once the marker is leaving marks mostly around the wheel with light pressure I call it done. Using Mikes SS spokes I figure on a round of spoke snugging after a few hundred miles. There is a wheel ready to lace in the basement, looking like a good day for it,

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Stove is going.

Yeah, I'll betcha it is!

As for a tolerance....yeah, .050-0.100" (ie. just under 1/16 to Just under 1/8") is likely ok I'd say. Less is better than more, but those numbers would probably be ok.

Pete
 
While looking for something else I saw the spec in a Factory XS-1 manual - 1/16" or .0625" 1.6 mm
 
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