Racing ignition

[Champion750]

Any racers out there?

I am starting a build on a xs650 based engine that will be used exclusively for flat track racing. I'm experienced at engine building/tuning but this is my first xs650. I have been doing a lot of research but I've been coming up a little short on which ignition system to use. The engine I'm starting with is a 1980 unit out of a "special". Stock ignition is electronic and I'd like to stick with electronic for its reliability mostly. I would also like to run without a battery or electric/kick starter to save weight.

There's a few systems out there to choose from but are there any that are more suitable for racing than others? Also, would one of these PMA alternators be an improvement over the stock 1980 unit (I know very little about the nature of the stock alternator/stator unit). Some say there is a worth while weight savings with these new PMA alternators. Just the fact that they don't need a battery to operate is a plus. I may also try to set up this engine with a remote starter so the flywheel and or rotor used will influence this.

So far all the electronic systems I'm seeing have fixed advance curves. Does anyone make one with a variable curve? If all the aftermarket systems have fixed curves, would a new set up be any improvement over stock as far as power output? Also I have not run my engine yet, I bought it in parts but the previous owner was riding the bike before he took it apart so I'm assuming the ignition system works. Is it possible to run stock 1980 electronic ignition without a battery? I have Craig Weeks manual but some of these questions he does not specifically address.

Also, do any of these aftermarket systems that utilize electronic advance curves improve performance and in what way?

Any help would be appreciated.
Thanx,
Robert

...its ok, you can make fun of me if I overlooked anything obvious

 

[jd750ace]

Any racers out there?

I am starting a build on a xs650 based engine that will be used exclusively for flat track racing. I'm experienced at engine building/tuning but this is my first xs650. I have been doing a lot of research but I've been coming up a little short on which ignition system to use. The engine I'm starting with is a 1980 unit out of a "special". Stock ignition is electronic and I'd like to stick with electronic for its reliability mostly. I would also like to run without a battery or electric/kick starter to save weight.

There's a few systems out there to choose from but are there any that are more suitable for racing than others? NOT REALLY Also, would one of these PMA alternators be an improvement over the stock 1980 unit (I know very little about the nature of the stock alternator/stator unit). Some say there is a worth while weight savings with these new PMA alternators. Just the fact that they don't need a battery to operate is a plus. I may also try to set up this engine with a remote starter so the flywheel and or rotor used will influence this. Personally, I'd be more interested to try a lightweight high output battery and no charging system for a sprint racer, but that's me. The PMA needs a capacitor to smooth it's voltage out. I don't know about any big weight savings.

So far all the electronic systems I'm seeing have fixed advance curves. Does anyone make one with a variable curve?Not that I have seen If all the aftermarket systems have fixed curves, would a new set up be any improvement over stock as far as power output? The stock system is very voltage sensitive. The Pamco, at least, is not, and you can run coils that are 3-10 times the output of the stockers Also I have not run my engine yet, I bought it in parts but the previous owner was riding the bike before he took it apart so I'm assuming the ignition system works. Is it possible to run stock 1980 electronic ignition without a battery? yes, but you need a PMA and capacitor I have Craig Weeks manual but some of these questions he does not specifically address.

Also, do any of these aftermarket systems that utilize electronic advance curves improve performance and in what way? The Pamco improves performance by being MUCH more accurate and smooth. It's a very noticeable improvement in starting, smoothness, ease of acceleration, and with a modern dual tower coil pushing easily 3 times the output or more (depending on the coil) to the plugs, better power is made throughout the rev range

Any help would be appreciated.
Thanx,
Robert

...its ok, you can make fun of me if I overlooked anything obvious

My answers only, but I'm warning you, there's much smarter folks here than me.

Welcome to our corner of the world.

 

[hotdog]

Contact forum member "650performance" (Craig Weeks) & buy his engine building guide.

 

[Champion750]

I have Craig Weeks manual but some of these questions he does not specifically address.

I could ask him directly via email (or on here) but asking all the forum members is a bigger data base. Gotta start somewhere...

And thx jd, this is good food for thought.

 

[hotdog]

Sorry Robert, obviously I didnt read your last paragraph too well....

 

[pekka]

ELECTREX seems to make CDI ignition system. Looks interesting. Race only, no lights. http://www.electrexworld.co.uk/acatalog/STK-465D_-_Stator_Kit.html

I put a HEI ignition to my friends mx-sidecar. Runs with battery only. No charger. Works great.

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Welcome to the forum, Robert. Fire-up a gallon of coffee, and do a forum search on 'pamco' and 'PMA', suck it all in. I believe Pamco Pete mentioned that his system used a firmware look-up table. If so, maybe you could request a custom table. Pete's likely to chime in here on that. His auto-advance unit also includes a unique kick-start retard feature, leading edge stuff...

 

[jay760]

I run an Electrex World system on mine, good system, self charging, very small ignition box, the advantage of this system to the PVL is the ignition box is separate where the PVL is part of the coil, so at least you can replace the coil if it goes down.

They do 2 systems I'll be trying the digital system next time, just to see what the difference is

 

[Signal]

Early Probe ignitions had an adjustable advance curve. I see that it is not available now but the current versions have integral, adjustable, rev limiters. Have a talk to Mark Whitebook he is very helpful.

http://www.probe-eng.com/servlet/StoreFront

If you are not rephasing you could use a MZB or Chinoy ignition / alternator for a RD 350/400. They make fully programmable ignitions; you can develop your own curve or use one of the numerous pre-programmed curves. This forum has some discussion on them.
http://www.2strokeworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=17212.0


Power Dynamo makes a single phase alternator for the XS in theory it should be lighter than a three phase unit.
https://www.powerdynamo.de/shop/show_product.php?cPath=4_41&products_id=293

 

[TwoJugs]

I too have looked for similar solutions to my motor and its application. I have not found an electronic ignition that has an adjustable advance option yet although one might exsist. I am currently running the stock points setup. I will probably shim the points for added spring tension since I am starting to use the motor in higher rpm ranges and the points do float some. In my latest build I discovered that the old school flat trackers were using fixed timing, full advance. I spoke with a few old timers that raced then and still do now. They are turning the motors up way past 8500 rpms most days. Of course I get totally different opinions on what "must be done or else you are wasting your time and money" If I run across a setup that is adjustable and race suited I might go there someday. Companies like Dyna and MSD make this for more popular bikes. Even the standard Power Commander modules do this on most V tiwn models.

So with the filters applied I am taking my own direction. I have no charging system, total loss. No stator/rotor/regulator on the bike. More weight gone. I use a sealed Deka battery and make sure it is charged before the run day. Since I am drag racing the run time is minimal but it lasts all day/weekend with minimal voltage drop. I have an outboard starter setup. More because of the torque needed to crank over a high compression motor and my motors are gutted of all starter components to save weight. I found that a Kawasaki 1000 outboard starter nut with 25mm hole fits on and XS crank and uses a 1 1/8 socket to drive it.

The tracker guys I spoke to are using Boyer or PVL iginitions. Some use stock advance setups, others are set at full advance. Since they start with a pull and are already reved past the advance system at the start I guess the feature is not missed. I am more concerned with the starting load and idle ability with 36 degrees of timing at start up?

Bottom line is take the info you get and figure out what is hype, sales talk, useful, mental masterbation and plain BS then go your way. I have learned through my experience with dealing and talking to many involved with the XS that most are not what they are built up to be and I had my share of disapointing moments that made me feel like the pro here. And I am no pro, just a detailed hobbiest that can smell a bull a mile away.

 

[Champion750]

Wow this is all very helpful. Lots of food for thought and thx TwoJugs for the starter info.
There is some benefits to flywheel weight in flattrack racing. I just don't know how much with an XS engine. Also with total loss you have to watch your battery charge...just one more thing to think about is all. Is it possible to convert over to points ignition on a 1980 engine? I always hated points but it'll probably be the best way to go if I wanna eliminate flywheel weight. Although the Electrex kit looks like it doesn't use a flywheel/alternator/stator of any kind.
Research research...

Thanx again for all the help

 

[Signal]

Thinking about it the Chinoy and MZB RD ignitions would be a gamble to try and adapt, so I would count them out. I must think things through more before posting.

However I have found an ignition for the XS 650 that has the features you want.

http://www.elektronik-sachse.de/shopsystem/product_info.php?info=p74_digital-ignition-zdg3--yamaha-xs650-.html
In the installation instructions it has two adjustments for selecting the advance curve (9 settings) and Rev limit (7900 or 9800 RPM).

A Sparx 160W single phase alternator is available from 650 Central. It also has the features you asked about.
http://650central.com/

 

[bt24]

www.hoosracing.com

70081 PVL ignitions $450.00 Race only no lighting coil, similar to the old ARD.

71 699 99 Power Dynamo MZB ignitions $705.00 Get for your street bike, no need for battery.

I have been racing my 750 for a couple of years now and it has the old ARD CDI System, no battery, no fly wheel, no charging, like what is on a dirt bike. You can set advance or retard.
On my new build I will most likely purchase the PVL from Gary at Hoos Racing, they have always been a pleasure to deal with. They answer the phone and or return phone calls and you know what they have in inventory.

I wish there were a less costly unit out there and if there is I wish someone would post it here. My scoots below.
Bryan

 

[pamcopete]

The PAMCO ignition only draws 10ma. It's the coil that needs the current, so a 17-6903 "Ultimate" coil at 2.5 Ohms draws 12/2.5 = 4.8 Amps, but it has a 60 degree dwell so the average current is 4.8 X 60/360 = 0.8 Amp X 2 = 1.6 Amps. Using an 8 AH battery means that would last for 8/1.6 = 5 hours before the battery voltage dropped down to 10.5 Volts, but the PAMCO would keep going all the way down to 5 Volts.

The PAMCO would work up to 5,000 RPM on the cam, or 10,000 RPM on the crank or you could substitute a 90 degree dwell angle rotor and go to 7,500 RPM on the cam or 15,000 RPM on the crank, your choice, but the 90 degree dwell angle would use a little more power, like, 4.8 @ 90/360 = 1.2 X 2 = 2.4 Amps so using a 8 AH battery that would last 8/2.4 = 3.33 hours to 10.5 Volts.

The cost of a basic PAMCO is $98.95 . The 17-6903 coil is $69.95 plus you will need some wires and caps as well. If you want to eliminate the mechanical advancer and just go with full advance, then you could install the new mechanical advancer eliminator which sets the advance to full.

Here is a video of the PAMCO and the 17-6903 "Ultimate" coil producing a 3/4" arc with a 6 Volt lantern battery:

This high voltage allows you to open up the spark plug gap to .040 for an increase in horsepower. The voltage is approximately 5 times greater than points.

 

[TwoJugs]

Wow this is all very helpful. Lots of food for thought and thx TwoJugs for the starter info.
There is some benefits to flywheel weight in flattrack racing. I just don't know how much with an XS engine. Also with total loss you have to watch your battery charge...just one more thing to think about is all. Is it possible to convert over to points ignition on a 1980 engine? I always hated points but it'll probably be the best way to go if I wanna eliminate flywheel weight. Although the Electrex kit looks like it doesn't use a flywheel/alternator/stator of any kind.
Research research...

Thanx again for all the help

Coverting to points is very possible but seems going backwards to most. I like using points, especially on a dialy rider. You can almost always make it home, when electronic systems go bad and your done. You will need a cam that has rod bushings installed, 79 and earlier I think. Since my motor only spends a total of 10 minutes or so running at average during race day my battery has no problem keeping up. With electronic ignition even less of and issue. Lots of pro bikes use total loss, some are using hi tech batteries for weight savings too. Much more electronics and ignition going and they make it though the day or weekend on batt alone.

Not sure where flywheel weight plays into your application. I did find a few crankshafts in my collection that someone had drilled very large holes in the plates and poured lead in. Balancing, added flywheel inertia??? Since the motors had no charging rotors maybe it was done to compensate?

I am planning on staying with points until I find a setup that allows for timing adjustments to be made by the final user. I am headed to a large motorcycle drag race event this weekend in Bradenton, final for the Manufactures Cup. Many vendors, suppliers and yes, manufactures will be there. I plan on spending some time with the right people seeing if it is possible to convert a current system to be used in our motor set ups.

 

[barncat]

reviving an old thread.

how many XS rides do you do that are over, say 4 motor-on hrs and don't involve looping back to your start point? me, virtually none. I usually don't get more than 100 miles out. this upcoming build i'm going to ditch the charging system entirely and go with a custom 18650 lithium battery pack.

upsides: no stator, no rotor, WAY less rotating mass on the crank, less heat, no reg/rec, no capacitor, absolute simplicity and theoretical reliability

downsides: ya gotta plug it in for an hour or two, no extended range rides w/o recharge(generally does not apply)

some quick tests on my two current XS's both kick only with PMA/capacitor yielded a nominal .9 - 1A draw for the ignition (points, mech adv, Andrews 4.8ohm dual output coil, iridium plugs), and 3.8A total for conventional older headlight on low beam with LED tail light, and 4.8A total on high beam. identical ignition draw on second bike with 6.0A low and 6.5A high beam for an H4 bulb... most juice goes straight to headlights of course. i'll use an LED headlight on the build which draws about 1/5 that current along with the usual LED tail and it will be kick only.

also plan to put a standard Pamco unit on and keep the mechanical advance. still working out the battery details with the stepson, who can also 3D print a custom shell as a battery case. minimum 14Ah or so, probably more, and it'll weigh around 1 1/2 lbs and be unobtrusive...

anything i'm leaving out here? seems too easy...

 

[retiredgentleman]

barncat:

This would be an interesting project. Please keeps us informed how it performs with no onboard charging. Certainly, an LED headlight and LED tail/brake is the way to go. LED headlights used to be very expensive, but maybe they have come down in price these days?

I'd say you would want a voltmeter mounted on the bike to monitor the battery condition.

 

[grizld1]

Yep, should work; lots of us have limped home with the alternator unplugged, after a power failure.

 

[barncat]

the whole reason this is more feasible nowadays is the small lithium cell. very high energy density, very compact, very lightweight, and importantly- the voltage stays on a plateau rather than dropping off in a steeper line as with old lead acid.

there is also a type of component known as a buck-boost DC to DC converter which can reduce or step up V as the cells drain, but it's probably not necessary other than it could be used to pump out a consistent 13.5V or so to keep those spark plugs happy.

the key here is how little current is actually required to fire even a performance ignition. that and an LED headlight setup of some sort. LED tail lights are 10 bucks. I don't ride much at night out in the sticks due to deer etc... but the headlight is of course a critical safety component. as an aside, in traffic I always flash the high/low whenever any other drivers are about to do a head-on left turn, or pull out in front of me.

it'll be a while before the next build is done but will certainly update when i have new info to report.

 

[weaselbeak]

My son rode his chopper for a couple of years in a dead loss system. Titled as a 73 the headlight is not required. He ran only a tail light/brake light and a standard lead acid battery. He would go 50-60 miles each way, and be running out of juice about the time he returned. I would think that with the newer batteries being so much better a dead loss system should be ok in limited riding. Mind you it only takes about 5 volts to fire the points he was running.