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Shakedown breakdown ‘83 sputtering

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by hermanlifer, Jun 21, 2018.

  1. TwoManyXS1Bs

    TwoManyXS1Bs BBQ Hunter Top Contributor

    Sounds like another of the continuing saga of li-ion battery failures. Cell phones, hoverboards, e-cigs. All self-destructing, YouTube entertainment. Haven't seen anything to predict if/when they fail...
     
  2. hermanlifer

    hermanlifer XS650 Enthusiast

    Yeah it looked like the videos I’ve seen of hover boards dying, soooo much smoke. Also the battery came with the original boxes of random parts, I think it’s old, manufactured in 2013 just never used.
     
    TwoManyXS1Bs likes this.
  3. Superjet

    Superjet XS650 Junkie XS650.com Supporter

    Man that sucks lots. Did you check voltages before you went out? Sounds like an overcharging thing going on there.
     
  4. hermanlifer

    hermanlifer XS650 Enthusiast

    Yeah I checked voltage, making sure the “new” rotor was gonna work right. It passes the resistance test at 5.5ohms so I expected it to work properly. Fired right up and had 13 volts at idle, increased rpm raised up to mid 14s. Looked strong and happy. I didn’t monitor the voltages for long, as the rotor was the only new variable and I’d been riding around with my jb weld magnet rotor doing just fine.
    After I get the dead battery out of my frame I’ll clean up the wiring and start it up with an extra car battery I’ve got, I’ll monitor the voltage and determine if the voltage regulator failed or anything else.
     
  5. Paul Sutton

    Paul Sutton Silent but Deadly Top Contributor

    What does overcharging mean …… ???? For a Lead battery I understand it means too much water loss from the electrolyte due to excessive electrolysis as a result of the charging voltage being too high. What does it mean for a Lithium battery? I understand that a Lithium battery has its own charging regulator which draws currently from the harness and monitors each battery cell independently. So how does it overcharge?
     
    hermanlifer likes this.
  6. TwoManyXS1Bs

    TwoManyXS1Bs BBQ Hunter Top Contributor

    Paul, after a battery is technically "fully charged", if you continue to push current thru it, that's overcharging. A lead/acid battery can reach 20+ vdc, and the current produces heat, promoting boilover. Similar with other battery types.

    The "good" li-ion batteries include an internal regulator. Costs more. Without it, you're on your own to manage it...
     
    hermanlifer likes this.
  7. Paul Sutton

    Paul Sutton Silent but Deadly Top Contributor

    When I have searched for overcharging I only ever found the mention of excessive water loss at voltages above 14.7V. Shall start another search in old autoelectric books, they are always pretty interesting to read. As for Lithium cells they should have good regulators built in, did the melted remains reveal a PC board with several wires running off to each cell?
     
  8. hermanlifer

    hermanlifer XS650 Enthusiast

    Attached Files:

    Paul Sutton likes this.
  9. Superjet

    Superjet XS650 Junkie XS650.com Supporter

    I read that they need plenty of cooling. If it got real hot it could of killed it. Something to think about. I got mine installed under my seat which allows it to cool real good.
     
    Paul Sutton likes this.
  10. TwoManyXS1Bs

    TwoManyXS1Bs BBQ Hunter Top Contributor

    The currently modern construction methods are supposed to prevent those battery fires. Might just consider it as an unfortunate artifact of an older design. I'd want to be sure that any replacement battery is built to the newer/safer specs.

    Li-ion batteries with internal regulation are usually found in portable electronics, with much lower current draws as compared to motorcycle starters. As such, I wouldn't expect to find any motorcycle batteries with internal regulation. And, I'd strongly recommend getting up to speed on Li-ion battery charging parameters (a bit different from lead/acid), maintenance, and monitoring..
     
    Paul Sutton likes this.
  11. Paul Sutton

    Paul Sutton Silent but Deadly Top Contributor

    Hermanlifer, thank you for the photos. So glad the battery didn't take out the rest of the bike. Perhaps this was just bad luck based on older Li battery design. Are you able to just use a Lead battery instead? I spent several hours this morning reading up on them and find I have been treating my battery in a nice manner.
     
    TwoManyXS1Bs likes this.
  12. hermanlifer

    hermanlifer XS650 Enthusiast

    I don’t have much space so whatever battery I use must be small. Also I’m kick start only so I don’t need a large battery, just reliable. I’d switch to a battery free design but I have already invested so much into rebuilding this system. Two new rotors, ignition coil, tci ignition unit, new fuse box, total rewire and hand made harness, brushes...plugs wires etc...
     
  13. Paul Sutton

    Paul Sutton Silent but Deadly Top Contributor

    I wonder if you would benefit from an onboard ammeter initially set between the battery and the ignition just in case there is something intermittently placing a heavy load on your battery. Maybe the headlight is draining too much ?? Add up your system current load just in case it seriously exceeds the alternator output at idle. My electric problems started when I fitted a 60/55W H4 bulb. Have since had to drop back to a 35/35W H4 which effectively matches the original specification of light output but at lower current (35W H4 halogen almost equivalent to the original 50W sealed beam light output).
     
    hermanlifer likes this.
  14. TwoManyXS1Bs

    TwoManyXS1Bs BBQ Hunter Top Contributor

    Last edited: Sep 15, 2018
    Paul Sutton likes this.
  15. hermanlifer

    hermanlifer XS650 Enthusiast

    Cleaned up the mess and wired in the new battery.
    Kicked over nice and easy, monitoring voltage on the new battery. Voltage shoots up to 19v as soon as bikes running! Shut down quick. So it seems the regulator rectifier has failed me. That explains why the ballistic battery went up on smoke. So I gotta shop around for another reg/rectifier.
     
  16. Superjet

    Superjet XS650 Junkie XS650.com Supporter

    If you have OEM TCI then just build your own reg/rec. Regulator from a Fiat and a windy nation three phase rectifier. Do a forum search and will pop up. I have done it and wasnt even $50 canadian with all shipping. Still working A1 and if you dont have a voltmeter would be good addition to keep an eye on charging.
     
    TwoManyXS1Bs, robinc and hermanlifer like this.
  17. hermanlifer

    hermanlifer XS650 Enthusiast

    I. Am. An idiot.

    Live and learn. That’s why I built this thing. And another lesson is in my head.

    Follow me on this.
    Initial problem—-no charge. Solution—MikesXS rotor.
    New problem—-weak magnet/thin rotor/timing misfire at hi rpm. Solution-rare earth magnet.
    New problem—magnet flew off and broke one brush. Solution—new brush and good oem rotor.
    New problem—battery melt down
    Solution—-new battery and troubleshooting
    New problem—still overcharging
    Solution—voltage regulator??

    Back up and troubleshoot while waiting on parts..wait a minute...the brush is grounded?! Regulator is bypassed!! Oh fuck these are the early model brushes!!! It’s been overcharging since that step! Why didn’t I catch it then? How’d I get two weeks of riding on those brushes? I ran it with the wrong brushes and the mikes crap rotor. It wasn’t putting out more than 15v. As soon as I added the good old rotor it went up to 20v and melted the battery. So I screwed up. And now to add insult to injury the brush holder is cracked and needs replacing. The good news? I rigged it up with nylon screws and tested. Runs perfect and voltage holds at 14.7 all the way up, at idle with dual headlights on, brake light engaged and blinker on its 13.2. The system works perfect, I just took the longest most painful expensive way to learn. So I’ve gotta get a good 80-84 brush holder( 50$ on eBay? Wtf) and new brushes( though I modded these brush mounts to work ok. Also I ordered the fiat regulator and 3phase rectifier so I’ll be able to modernize the stock reg/rec and have a working back up. Uhhhhh so after that I should be able to ride like a normal nut job.
     
    robinc and TwoManyXS1Bs like this.
  18. hermanlifer

    hermanlifer XS650 Enthusiast

    Updates. Electrical system works flawlessly. On board led voltmeter monitors voltage and it’s been spot on.

    Had a bizarre incident. My beanie cap fell out of my bag, onto my chain and got pulled into the primary gear. What a mess!
    Also the swing arm bushings must be going, but too much wiggle in the rear
    And my rear fender mounts aren’t gonna hold up.
    Gonna strip it down and redo her over the winter.
    Thanks for all the help here, I’d have been lost without this forum.
     
    robinc, Superjet and Jim like this.
  19. mrtwowheel

    mrtwowheel Honda Etched On Brain Top Contributor

    Wiggle in the rear......yeah, that is usually blamed on trouble at the rear suspension. But, check the steering head bearings too. Bad/loose steering head bearings can make the rear wobble around while the front may seem normal.

    Scott
     
    Paul Sutton, robinc, Superjet and 2 others like this.
  20. Superjet

    Superjet XS650 Junkie XS650.com Supporter

    Who knew OEM components still work awesome.....I learned the hard way too! Got a full other OEM +DIY charging setup ready to go if my current one fails. Glad all is working and you are enjoying your bike again.
     
    hermanlifer and robinc like this.

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