Starter issue

[manxman]

Greetings all. I'm new to the forum as of today but, have owned my '82 XS650SJ for about thirteen years now. Aside from things loosening up on occasion from vibration, it's been a very reliable ride. The other day though, the starter button suddenly quit working. The bike runs fine if kick started but the start button produces no response at all. My question is: is there a "common cause" or most likely area to look for? I have checked the start button itself and there is no voltage to the blue/white wire.
Thanks in advance for any light you can shed.
Dave

 

[5twins]

I'm not sure you would see any voltage on the blue/white wire. It's not a power wire, it's a ground wire. When you press the starter button, it grounds out the blue/white wire. This wire comes from the solenoid. Grounding it trips the solenoid which then connects the heavy battery cable running into it to the heavy cable running out to the starter. I would start my testing at the solenoid. Ground the blue/white wire down there momentarily to see if the starter operates. If it does, the problem is in the wiring running up to the start button, the button itself, or the ground connection it's trying to make. If the starter doesn't work, the solenoid could be bad, or the power feed into it on the other small wire (red/white).

 

[manxman]

I'm not sure you would see any voltage on the blue/white wire. It's not a power wire, it's a ground wire. When you press the starter button, it grounds out the blue/white wire. This wire comes from the solenoid. Grounding it trips the solenoid which then connects the heavy battery cable running into it to the heavy cable running out to the starter. I would start my testing at the solenoid. Ground the blue/white wire down there momentarily to see if the starter operates. If it does, the problem is in the wiring running up to the start button, the button itself, or the ground connection it's trying to make. If the starter doesn't work, the solenoid could be bad, or the power feed into it on the other small wire (red/white).

Thanks 5twins. Your right about the blue/white wire. I tried grounding it but with no results. There is no power at the red/white wire to the solenoid either.
I tested all the relays according to the Haynes manual and they all passed with the exception of the third test (contacts check with the battery disconnected) of the starter cut-off/headlight relay. So, I tried to jump the two large terminals on the solenoid with a remote starter switch and nothing happened except the remote switch got very hot, very fast. I thought that was kinda scary, like the starter is locked up?​

 

[Jim]

So, I tried to jump the two large terminals on the solenoid with a remote starter switch and nothing happened except the remote switch got very hot, very fast. I thought that was kinda scary, like the starter is locked up?

What you did was try to pass 40-50 amps through a switch designed for 5-10 amps.... The remote starter switch is designed to activate the solenoid... not act as one.

 

[manxman]

What you did was try to pass 40-50 amps through a switch designed for 5-10 amps.... The remote starter switch is designed to activate the solenoid... not act as one.

Duh ! Obviously electrical is not my strong suit. Thanks JimD54.
I may have to give up and take it to a shop before I ruin something else.

 

[5twins]

Kind of crude, but for a quick test, you can just short between the 2 large wire connections on the solenoid with a big screwdriver. Some sparks may fly but this should show you if the starter motor is still functioning. The red/white power feed wire that runs to the solenoid and trips it passes through the headlight/starter safety relay. That safety relay is what stops the starter from operating once the motor is running by cutting the power flow on the red/white wire. You could bypass that relay to test the rest of the starter circuit (solenoid, starter button, associated wiring). If you unplug the relay, you should see 2 red/white wires in the harness plug. Jumper them together.

 

[ThatXS650Guy]

I just went thru the same thing. Try grounding your throttle housing to a known good ground and checking the starter button. If it works you need to ground the housing better. I ended up running a separate ground to the frame. Worked for me but then electricity = magic so...

 

[manxman]

Kind of crude, but for a quick test, you can just short between the 2 large wire connections on the solenoid with a big screwdriver. Some sparks may fly but this should show you if the starter motor is still functioning. The red/white power feed wire that runs to the solenoid and trips it passes through the headlight/starter safety relay. That safety relay is what stops the starter from operating once the motor is running by cutting the power flow on the red/white wire. You could bypass that relay to test the rest of the starter circuit (solenoid, starter button, associated wiring). If you unplug the relay, you should see 2 red/white wires in the harness plug. Jumper them together.

Once again 5twins your spot on! I jumped the two r/w wires and it fired right up. There are more than a few of those safety relays on eBay so an easy fix. I may tear into mine and see if maybe the contacts can be dressed.
Thanks so much for your help, I was tearing my hair out. I'm gonna love this forum!!

 

[manxman]

I just went thru the same thing. Try grounding your throttle housing to a known good ground and checking the starter button. If it works you need to ground the housing better. I ended up running a separate ground to the frame. Worked for me but then electricity = magic so...

Thanks but mine seems to be grounding ok. I've isolated the problem to the safety relay thanks to 5twins

 

[5twins]

Yes, sometimes you can fix those relays by simply popping the covers off and cleaning them. You can observe their function too with the covers off. Put power to them and see if the contacts pop open or closed.

There are 2 basic types of relays, what are called "NO" (normally open) and "NC" (normally closed). You'll find one of each in this double relay assembly. The headlight one is an "NO" (normally open) type. When it sees power and is tripped, it closes which sends power to the headlight and turns it on. The starter one is an "NC" (normally closed) type. When closed, it allows power to flow through on the red/white wire. When it gets triggered, it pops open and that stops the power flow on the red/white wire.

 

[manxman]

Yes, sometimes you can fix those relays by simply popping the covers off and cleaning them. You can observe their function too with the covers off. Put power to them and see if the contacts pop open or closed.

There are 2 basic types of relays, what are called "NO" (normally open) and "NC" (normally closed). You'll find one of each in this double relay assembly. The headlight one is an "NO" (normally open) type. When it sees power and is tripped, it closes which sends power to the headlight and turns it on. The starter one is an "NC" (normally closed) type. When closed, it allows power to flow through on the red/white wire. When it gets triggered, it pops open and that stops the power flow on the red/white wire.

Well, I got the covers off but they don't appear to be serviceable. The contacts are pretty well shrouded and there's no way to get a file or sandpaper in there. I'll just have to take a chance on another relay. Interestingly both relays are NC and when the key is turned on, they both open. Of course when they open they are contacting another circuit below. I suppose it's all in the way they are wired but I don't see any obvious defect.

 

[Jim]

Most relays can be wired as either NC or NO.

If you wire 30 and 87a (in this instance), it's a normally closed relay. Energizing it would open the circuit... as in deactivating the starter after its charging (running). If you wire 30 and 87, it's a normally open relay. When energized it turns the lights on. I haven't looked that close at 'em, but I suspect Yamaha used the same relay for both... one wired NO and one wired NC.

 

[manxman]

Most relays can be wired as either NC or NO.
View attachment 129637
If you wire 30 and 87a (in this instance), it's a normally closed relay. Energizing it would open the circuit... as in deactivating the starter after its charging (running). If you wire 30 and 87, it's a normally open relay. When energized it turns the lights on. I haven't looked that close at 'em, but I suspect Yamaha used the same relay for both... one wired NO and one wired NC.

That's exactly what I thought. Thanks!

 

[Jim]

That's exactly what I thought. Thanks!

Be advised, the headlight relay uses a diode and jumper to make it a latching relay. In most applications this is done externally to the relay. Not sure how Yamaha played it....