Starter Suicide

[XSLeo]

Have you been doing a lot of starting with the e-start without much running time ? A lot of starting without enough running time above 2000 rpms will draw the battery down. It may still read 13 volts but be only a surface charge. When you try to crank the engine the voltage drops. Do you have a motorcycle charger? Try charging the battery. Over night or so.
Leo

 

[prue1]

Have you been doing a lot of starting with the e-start without much running time ? A lot of starting without enough running time above 2000 rpms will draw the battery down. It may still read 13 volts but be only a surface charge. When you try to crank the engine the voltage drops. Do you have a motorcycle charger? Try charging the battery. Over night or so.
Leo

I have been doing quite a bit of starting with minimal run time. Since it is a new rebuild, I have been trying to sort out the engine. I suspect that my battery charger could be defective. It is the type that will not overcharge the battery and it is charging my battery (which measures 12-13 volts) at only a 1/2 amp rate.

 

[prue1]

I have been doing quite a bit of starting with minimal run time. Since it is a new rebuild, I have been trying to sort out the engine. I suspect that my battery charger could be defective. It is the type that will not overcharge the battery and it is charging my battery (which measures 12-13 volts) at only a 1/2 amp rate.

Better explanation:

Since the charger says the battery is charged....it will only charge at the lowest rate (1/2 amps). I need to make sure the charger is working correctly.

 

[retiredgentleman]

A lithium battery may have specific charging requirements. Have you read and fully followed the battery manufacturer's instructions.

 

[prue1]

I will review, thanks.

 

[peanut]

I think a lot of batteries get damaged due to being charged too fast with too high an amperage

The battery manufacturer suggests a charging current of 1/10th of the Amp/hour rating which is 14 Ahr so a charging rate of 1Amp should be fine.

Car chargers typically charge at 6-8Amps or more even on a low charge rate which is far too much.

For testing purposes Prue why not hook up a spare car battery instead of knocking the stuffing out of your bike battery

 

[prue1]

I think a lot of batteries get damaged due to being charged too fast with too high an amperage

The battery manufacturer suggests a charging current of 1/10th of the Amp/hour rating which is 14 Ahr so a charging rate of 1Amp should be fine.

Car chargers typically charge at 6-8Amps or more even on a low charge rate which is far too much.

For testing purposes Prue why not hook up a spare car battery instead of knocking the stuffing out of your bike battery

I have been charging with a low amp AGM battery charger. Thanks for your suggestion.

 

[peanut]

I only suggested the car battery so that you can eliminate a potential low capacity battery. Your battery may indicate 13volts but still have no power capacity (Amps) to drive a starter motor if it has a dead cell.

A car battery would spin that starter properly for testing purposes ,all day long and then some.

let us know how you get on .

 

[peanut]

I have 13+ volts at battery, have not checked voltage at starter, but my lights are very dim indicating lack of voltage from battery. Do you still think it is my starter?

the answer to your question is how could we possibly know ?

You indicate that your battery is fully charged and has adequate capacity to operate the starter motor so if that is the case then it is not the battery at fault.

The fact that you have a dim headlight is probably related to the starter fault and suggests that you either have a
1. bad ground/s somewhere or
2. you have a poor connection/s somewhere or
3. the Starter Motor Relay(solenoid ) is fubar
4. or there is a fault with the starter motor .
5. remote possibility that something is partially seized somewhere

if you asked me to guess I'd say given that you have recently rebuilt the engine etc I would check that all my ground and supply connections are still good especially where they were disturbed or remade. Its an easy check and the easiest place to start .Something could have vibrated loose.

Then I would do the check that Leo suggested .

Take a heavy duty cable like a jump lead or 2.5mm electrical cable and connect one end to the battery + positive and very carefully prod the +positive terminal on the Starter Motor .( Make sure you are in neutral first obviously )

BE CAREFUL to check you are not prodding the negative - ground side of the starter motor or you'll see some sparks and get some unwanted Arc welding experience
Seriously ...don't play around with direct unfused voltage from the battery if you are not completely sure you know what you are doing.

If the starter motor now cranks the engine briskly you have eliminated the starter motor as the faulty component.

No go ? then you'll need to drain the oil and refurbish the starter motor.

Let us know what you have checked what the result was and above all please respond to all questions put or we will not be able to diagnose your fault/s

Remember we are unable to work on your bike directly and rely totally on you for feedback to help us diagnose the fault.

 

[prue1]

I only suggested the car battery so that you can eliminate a potential low capacity battery. Your battery may indicate 13volts but still have no power capacity (Amps) to drive a starter motor if it has a dead cell.

A car battery would spin that starter properly for testing purposes ,all day long and then some.

let us know how you get on .

I will check using car battery. My bike is apart right now, waiting for the head to be returned from overhaul( a long story). I should have it back in about 2 weeks. I will let all know how I make out with starter issue.

Thanks "nut"

 

[peanut]

I will check using car battery. My bike is apart right now, waiting for the head to be returned from overhaul( a long story). I should have it back in about 2 weeks. I will let all know how I make out with starter issue.

Thanks "nut"

and you didn't think to tell us this before I spent half an hour typing out a response to your request for help ?.....sheesh shakes head

 

[prue1]

and you didn't think to tell us this before I spent half an hour typing out a response to your request for help ?.....sheesh shakes head

Hi, I'm back!

Motor back in bike with good compression... now on to my starting system:

My battery was bad, have installed new battery and it is cranking the starter good, but is being way over charged (17+ volts)! I am sure this is what cooked my old battery.

I am running an xs charge stator/ regulator system, I no longer have the old Yamaha rectifier or regulator installed (baught bike this way). Does this point to the xs charge regulator being bad? How can I test?

Thanks.

 

[retiredgentleman]

Hi, I'm back!

Motor back in bike with good compression... now on to my starting system:

My battery was bad, have installed new battery and it is cranking the starter good, but is being way over charged (17+ volts)! I am sure this is what cooked my old battery.

I am running an xs charge stator/ regulator system, I no longer have the old Yamaha rectifier or regulator installed (baught bike this way). Does this point to the xs charge regulator being bad? How can I test?

Thanks.

Oh yeah, 17+ volts will do lots of damage. "XS Charge" .............I guess that's a PMA set up? Its very important that the regulator has a good ground...............is it connected to bare metal by its case or by a wire to bare metal?

PMA's need a sizeable load to help keep the voltage down to normal....................is the 17+ volts with the headlight on? If not, try measuring with the head light on.

 

[prue1]

Oh yeah, 17+ volts will do lots of damage. "XS Charge" .............I guess that's a PMA set up? Its very important that the regulator has a good ground...............is it connected to bare metal by its case or by a wire to bare metal?

PMA's need a sizeable load to help keep the voltage down to normal....................is the 17+ volts with the headlight on? If not, try measuring with the head light on.

Don't mean to be ignorant, but what is a PMA setup? I did check with the lights on/off, as I recall slightly lower voltage with lights on. Shortly after I bought the bike, I think it was when I took out the motor, the green and red wires coming from the regulator connector block broke loose. I am guessing that this short more then likely fried the regulator?

Sir, since I am new to the forum, can you tell me how I might post a new message/thread? Thanks

 

[prue1]

Hi, prue1 here,

Well I am back with a wrench in my hand, I'm not sure if that is a good thing! Motor back in frame and new battery. Starter cranked right over and motor fired up quick. I checked the voltage at the battery, it was 17+, yikes! I am guessing I have a bad regulator (mine is from xscharge). I had some loose connectons and I think I might have fried the regulator?

Any thoughts?

Thanks.

 

[XSLeo]

Check and tighten your loose connections, especially the grounds then retest.
Leo

 

[XSLeo]

XS Charge is the PMA system Mike's sells. PMA means Permanent Magnet Alternator. This means the rotor has permanent magnets in it to excite the stator to create electricity.
The stock system uses a Field Excited Alternator. These use battery power to create an electromagnetic field around the rotor to excite the stator.
Leo

 

[pamcopete]

Listen to these guys (XSLeo and retiredgentleman), they are the real pros. I'm just a poser.

Refurbishing a starter is definitely a good move. I did this to a couple of my bikes and I swear that I could drive them around the block on just the starter motor!

Here are the before and after pics:

It's one of those deals where even if it doesn't need to be done, do it anyway to gain the improved performance.

 

[prue1]

Check and tighten your loose connections, especially the grounds then retest.
Leo

I will do so in the AM, thanks.

 

[prue1]

XS Charge is the PMA system Mike's sells. PMA means Permanent Magnet Alternator. This means the rotor has permanent magnets in it to excite the stator to create electricity.
The stock system uses a Field Excited Alternator. These use battery power to create an electromagnetic field around the rotor to excite the stator.
Leo

Thanks for the clarification.