Starting, running problems

[jetero41]

A week ago buttoned up the "bitch" ( her for real name ). Kicked and kicked and kicked a whole lot more. Finally started enough to get a 5 minute ride and figure out that I MUST adjust the clutch, way too much trouble finding neutral.

Today tried to start enough to warm it up good and change the oil and adjust the clutch. Way too f%@($@!* much kicking. Started a couple of times but as soon as I went to sleep at the throttle it died. Spent more time wiping my sweat off of the new paint than I did listening to it run.

I believe the Battery is good, new and AGM. Will stick on the charger anyway
Fuel is good. New NGK Iridium plugs.

After reading the forums for awhile now I've decided I still don't know the "bitch" like I should and I am appealing to ya'all for a punch list to check. Don't want to do a teardown as it's time to ride AND this winter this is planned.

Ordered a starter on E-bay as it has to be so much simpler to work on HER if she'll start.

B UT WHAT DO I DO NOW????? Lot's of ideas but I am not sure about a LOGICAL approach.

Thank you

 

[cooltouch]

Okay, when you finally got the bitch running for the 5-minute ride, how did it run? Did it idle okay? Did you take a look at the plugs after the run? Fresh gas?

You need to tell us a bit more about the bike and what you did to it before you buttoned it back up. Like what year it is. Points or electronic iggy. Like did you clean/rebuild the carbs?

When my bike becomes a bitch to start, it's usually cuz I let it sit too long and the gas got old, or something got into the carbs and clogged them.

 

[gggGary]

+1

Clues, I need clues!
If you haven't, the carbs need to be gone through. All the way or don' come crying to us. New O-rings where appropriate. hows the spark look?

 

[jetero41]

Your wish is my command.
'83 Heritage Special , still CDI, sat about a year without running, fuel brand spanking new (even added a LITTLE 108 octane booster to the 5 gal. container), added K&N stock type filters, buttoned up after mostly appearance work, paint clean, etc. (nothing opened up), new NGK iridium plugs ( #6's), cables freshly lubed, new Mike's Non-vacuum petcock,

The ride seemed fine other than the clutch which I attributed to a number of "rider rust" years and need for 'Hot" adjustment and noise which sounds like it is mostly cam chain guide (30,000 miles). Motor doesn't like to idle without a few extra R's via the throttle.

Noticed yesterday, when running, that the bike had blown off the vacuum cap I put on the now unnecessary petcock vac port. Also had a periodic poof from this now open port, almost like a pressure blow off valve.

Seemed that I couldn't generate enough speed kicking. I'm 6'1, 180 and not in too terrible shape, no strong fuel smell, like a flooded bike.

Plug, left side, looked normal.

Gonna' stop now , post and take look at the previous replies to see what else I need to answer.

Thanks guys.

 

[jetero41]

Both posts questioned the carbs and no I have not touched them. Seriously hoping to put ALL rebuild off 'til the fall. Had the bike too long without a ride. PO rode the bike "every weekend".
My BIG problem is reading all the posts and hearing the weaknesses of our XS
's. The notoriously weak coil and 30,000 seems like a likely culprit.

Carbs huh??? Will start there but please don't abandon me here.
ALL possibilities will be explored.

I WANT TO RIDE

Thanks gentlemen, scholars and ...........

 

[jetero41]

Gary, just looked at rebuild kits and O-rings don't seem to be included. Did you have other O- rings in mind?

Just took another look at Mike's. Why doesn't someone put together a KIT. I need a "grocery" list. Just venting.
Gary, never mind question above.

 

[gggGary]

There is a guy....
Seriously Robert Barr I just got a slug of o-rings from him he sells to the GS crowd as a little side line but the O-rings fit our XS650's just dandy. you might want to get the little stainless washers for hte idle jets too. they are easily lost.
http://cycleorings.com/ the sets for the 450 (item # 9 are perfect for us too. he ships very fast. I ordered Thursday and had o_rings Saturday.
After a carb overhaul my XS650 (I have done 3 BS 34 equipped bikes now) runs like a Swiss watch. At your 30,000 miles I would want to do a compression check just to see if the engine is healthy. That is first on my list when I start in on a unknown bike. No since wasting a lot of time if it is just a parts bike. Here is a very simple but quite useful "tool" a piece of bare solid copper wire about 18" long the ground wire from 12-2 or 14-2 romex house wire is perfect take a wrap around the base of one spark plug pass it through the bike just above the carbs and wrap the other end around the second plug. hook up the plug wires and check for spark. The late model ignition is strong on these bikes. Do not crnak a bike without grounded plugs hooked up. if your charging system is still unknown keep a battery charger hooked up while cranking so you know you have lots of volts. Whats up with the electric start? Is it working, do you have a GOOD battery in it?
An occasional puff that blows off a vacuum caps isn't that unusual. The caps have to have a clamp to keep them on. You should adjust the cam chain and set the valves. NO big deal to do either one. There are free on line factory repair manuals download one and just follow it. The o-rings that are inside the float valve seats are nearly always bad. The carbs have been messed with in the past and the odds are pretty good someone has done something wrong during reassembly the idle mixture screws are a favorite spot to mess up. People often start messing with float height to fix leaky o-rings it doesn't work but they do it. there are good overhaul guides on here and elsewhere follow one. You MUST remove the carbs to overhaul them air cleaners have ot come off the spigots that bolt to the engine HAVE to come off. With practice 20 minutes will have the carbs on the bench. figure a few hours of work on the bench to overhaul them about 1 full can of spray carb cleaner. 1/2 roll of paper towel q-tips, a hand impact wrench hammer operated, perfectly fit screw drivers to remove jets and orifices. Or you can turn the carbs into pretty junk. I use a muffin pan to keep track of parts while doing the work. If you don't do these things expect nothing but frustration all summer, you will hate the bike but it's the same on every old bike. crabs ignition and charging all need to be checked so you know they are good.

 

[jetero41]

Electric start- Last week good click at hit of starter button ( solenoid good!!???)
yesterday no click led me to believe the battery was drained (draining down)
Good, new battery, AGM.
Ordered new (old) starter to rebuild, and spring clip.
PO said" ran good, every weekend, no electric start"
Could lack of/bad clutch adjustment mess with starting with kick??

 

[gggGary]

Could lack of/bad clutch adjustment mess with starting with kick??
Yes it will allow slip and the engine will not spin fast enough to fire.
No click is a a solenoid or circuit problem not a starter problem. Did you have the side stand up and in neutral or clutch in? there are (were) interlock switches for all three on your bike. As a quick check I will short the two big terminals on the solenoid with a screw driver to see if the starter works. If so then chase the starter circuit, the button is a normal weak point.

 

[cooltouch]

Well, Gary's hit most all the important stuff, so I'll just add a bit.

My experiences with my '81 XS is that its carbs are very sensitive to sitting for extended periods. The most common symptom was it would not start. Almost every time I've let the bike sit for more than a few months, I've had to pull the carbs and thoroughly clean them. I'm almost positive this is your problem.

One thing Gary touched on, and I'll just add to it a bit based on my own experiences: when you go to remove the carbs, there's a procedure, I've found. First, I remove the airbox and filters. Next I remove the cam chain adjuster cover. It's a lot easier getting the carbs off when it's out of the way. Then I remove the carbs from the intake boots. Supposedly, they can be removed at this point -- from the right side is easiest. But it's even easier if I also remove the right side intake boot. I usually don't have to remove both. Even so, it's a close fit, and you might have to maneuver the carbs around some before they'll come out.

+1 on Gary's recommendation for using an impact driver. When dismantling the carbs you will most likely need it. If a screw is really tight, don't force it with a screwdriver, cuz you'll probably strip it. Use the impact driver instead.

Sometimes it's better to dismantle the carbs one at a time so you'll have a reference for putting it back together. Or you can take pics with a digicam as you disassemble. To inspect/replace the needle and seat and/or clean out its orifice, you'll need a drift punch to remove the pin that holds the floats in place. As I recall, this pin is knurled on one end, so you want to drift out the pin from the other end, such that the knurling does not have to pass through the post that holds the pin. Do NOT lose that tiny clip that holds the needle to the floats. My experience with this needle is, because it is rubber tipped, it seldom goes bad, but it's a good idea to clean the seat and orifice anyway.

Do you have access to an air compressor? I have found that spray carb cleaner, which does an excellent job of cleaning the carbs, does not have sufficient pressure to properly clean or clear the carb's orifices. I use an air gun with a small nozzle for this. BTW, just in case you don't already know this, it bears mentioning: when spraying the carb cleaner, wear gloves and eye protection. That stuff passes right through the skin via osmosis and is bad for your liver.

As for the no-start condition. My '81 had a similar problem. Good starter and fresh battery, but most of the time, it would not start. There are two relays, as I recall, that control the starter's operation. I'm not exactly clear anymore as to exactly what each one does, but I know that one involves cutting the headlight circuit in and out. I dismantled both and cleaned the points contacts because they were pretty heavily oxidized, and thoroughly cleaned all the connections. That took care of the problem.

You mentioned the coils. One of the inherent problems with the XS and old, weak coils is, when you try to use the electric foot, the starter is pulling so much juice from the battery that there isn't enough left for the coils to generate a sufficiently hot spark. Result is the bike is reluctant to start with the electric foot, but will usually start on the 1st or 2nd kick. My bike's like this -- still has the original coils.

There is a recent thread here -- by INXS -- that discusses the starter system on the XS at length. You should read through this. If one of the seals has gone bad, your starter might have filled up with oil and crud and not be working efficiently, thus drawing even more amps from the bike's puny 14ah battery. If you decide to remove the starter, be sure to drain the oil first, or you'll have a mess on your hands.

That's about all that I can think of for now.

 

[gggGary]

So if it has been running and like you I hate to wrench when I could be riding. Sounds like one idle circuit is plugged somewhere. the good news? It could be the idle mixture screw. easy to remove, check, replace.
Remove the gas tank, you will need a straight shot at the screw recess. FIT a screw driver to the screws. This normally involves grinding the sides of the screw driver to fit in the hole, resist the temptation to use a tiny screwdriver that won't fit the slot well. Bugger this screw and the carbs are toast. turn the screws IN to a LIGHT seat don't force them. Count turns so you know where they were. if they were around 2 to 3 turns out and both about the same it had been running OK at one point. If they are all weird, 4, 5 turns out on one or both sides the problem was never found. OK now remove them you should have (in order) a screw, a spring, a tiny washer and an o-ring. the o-ring never comes out with the screw if it exists, it's down that hole. don't despair, this is easy. get a drywall screw 1 1/4" 1 5/8" not a real big one. put it in the hole and LIGHTLY twist it about 1/4 turn. The idea is to capture the o-ring on the screw thread, remove, it may take a couple of tries but it will come out. odds are pretty good it is shot, brittle, squashed, split, or all three. You need a new one, see Robert barr or the usual suspects. spray some carb claaner down the hole wipe the end of the screw off with carb cleaner on a rag. reassemble start with 2 1/2 turns out if the all else is OK it will run well at that setting.

The bad news? It could be the idle orifice, carb removal time.

 

[jetero41]

Thanks everyone.

Will take a couple of days and try to work all of the checks and procedures out.
Starting with recharging the batt, compression test, check of solenoid (when I tried it the bloody sidestand was down, forgot. Too tired and sweaty from kicking to think right. Will order rebuild parts for carb rebuild ( any comprehensive parts list threads ).
Same with starter . Found 2 kits on E-bay, both listed as starter rebuild kits but photos and contents are different, same manufacturer and same seller

Thanks again and I hope I don't have add to THIS thread

 

[XSLeo]

Try reading inxs's thread on starters. A lot of very good info.
Often the main reason the starter won't turn are dirty connections on the cables. At the starter as well as the solenoid/starter relay and battery. ground connections at the battery too.