Stator is getting so hot the wires at the phase connections melting

leighd42

leighd42

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This problem is really boggling me. I installed a HHB PMA kit in the spring and the install was dead easy as per Huge's excellent instructions. I went on a 100Km ride and when I got to my destination my battery was dead. Managed to get a charge on the battery and made it back home before she died again. I started checking the charging system and noticed that the resistance between one of the phases on the stator was infinite resistance so I pulled the rotor and stator off to have a look. One of the wires one the stator had completely come off the stator and had melted and shorted to ground causing the stator to burn up pretty bad. I was desperate to take the bike out that weekend and Hugh was on a ride that week so it was up to me to come up with a solution myself. I cleaned up the stator and re-wired it making sure this time to insulate everything properly and re-solder new wires to the phases and even put new connector's on at the Reg/Rect connection as well. All summer the bike has been running tip top, carbs tuned, plugs the perfect colour battery charging......until the other day. Jumped on the bike and the same trouble again....Pulled the stator off and this time the stator wires at the phases actually got so hot the fused together and melted the solder enough to drip onto my flywheel. So once again I have re-wired it this time I crimped ( 14Ga FT4 - fire rated wire ) to each phase and new connectors again at the Reg/Rect connection and I'm back in business again. Does anyone know what could be causing the Stator/Rotor area to be getting so hot? I would like to get a new stator but I am afraid it will burn up too unless I resolve the root problem. There are no shorts, all grounds are perfect, and I'm reading 0.7 ohms between each phase which should be spec. Any ideas would be a great help....:banghead:
 
So i have been having this same issue. I have gone through 3 stators with Hugh until recently finding a local shop who rewires stators. I just got a call from Mike with Rickys stators in San Diego and he told me the stators I have been getting from Hugh are made in China. From what I have read, these Chinese parts are usually crap. Cheap wiring and together with the strong magnets from this type of rotor, it is bound to fry up. I just burnt through the 3rd one and decided I have to do something different. I'm having these guys rewire it the stator with heavier wire. I'm also thinking about drilling holed in the stator cover to get it ventilation. Has anyone done this? Im pretty sure ive seen it on bikes or no cover at all.
 
I have bitten my tongue a bit when it comes to these aftermarket PMA kits. Just put a OEM YFM350 stator and be done with it....lol
 
chizler, is that stator a 3 phase or a single phase unit? Have you used it personally and how does it handle the load of the xs650 electrical system? I would be very interested to hear how it fairs.

Clayton
 
I'm in a similar boat right now, and I think that the problem is dolfinitely a combination of things, a major one being that the parts are made in China. But not only the stator, the regulator, too. I was thinking of buying one of those fancy-pants series regulators. Definitely a chunk of change, but the cost in time and frustration of sending my PMA back two more times is greater.

How much are they charging you for the USA rewind?

Thanks!
Adam
 
NorthParkMC said:
So i have been having this same issue. I have gone through 3 stators with Hugh until recently finding a local shop who rewires stators. I just got a call from Mike with Rickys stators in San Diego and he told me the stators I have been getting from Hugh are made in China. From what I have read, these Chinese parts are usually crap. Cheap wiring and together with the strong magnets from this type of rotor, it is bound to fry up. I just burnt through the 3rd one and decided I have to do something different. I'm having these guys rewire it the stator with heavier wire. I'm also thinking about drilling holed in the stator cover to get it ventilation. Has anyone done this? Im pretty sure ive seen it on bikes or no cover at all.
Click to expand...

Yes, allowing some cooler air into the alternator is a good idea on these bikes. I use a couple of spacers and longer cap bolts. This was an XSJOHN (rip) mod which I have been using for 5 or 6 years now.

The OEM electrical parts on these bikes were made in Japan by Hitachi. I've had quite a few of the components apart, and find they are very high quality. My alternator is the original stock alternator, which is working perfectly after 36 years.

The stock alternator got a bad reputation, because most owners never replaced
brushes (only need replacing every 4 to 6 years) , never cleaned the slip rings, and tried to charge dead batteries which over heated the rotor. With a tiny amount of maintenance, the stock alternator works great.

The PMAs have been marketed as the best thing since sliced bread, but its now becoming clear that the Chinese (Taiwan) quality is no where close to Japanese quality.

The original rectifier and regulator, while reliable in their day, are not as effecient as newer designs, causing some voltage losses. Replacing these 2 devices with modern solid state components, makes for a healthy charging system, when used with the stock alternator.
 

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OakBehringer said:
I'm in a similar boat right now, and I think that the problem is dolfinitely a combination of things, a major one being that the parts are made in China. But not only the stator, the regulator, too. I was thinking of buying one of those fancy-pants series regulators. Definitely a chunk of change, but the cost in time and frustration of sending my PMA back two more times is greater.

How much are they charging you for the USA rewind?

Thanks!
Adam
Click to expand...

Dare I say it....................have you considered using a stock type alternator?
 
Awwwww, come on RG. We're not talking about the stock system!

I'll be the first to say that I feel as though I have been had by the kits out there and the people marketing them. There definitely seems to be statistical merit to their unreliability, if you look at how frequently similar problems are being reported on our forum. It sucks for those of us who have purchased PMA kit. We are using the forum to get help with the PMA systems we are running.

Seriously, a SHITLOAD of people on these forums have ditched their stock alternators for the PMA alternative. We have PMA questions. We want PMA answers.

There is NOTHING wrong with a PMA system. In some ways it is superior to the stock system. In some ways it is not. The PROBLEM is with the quality of parts that we have been sold.

Some of have no desire in going back to the stock system for real reasons:

  • Need more wattage to run accessories, such as heated gloves, or a heated jacket, because they're badasses who ride all winter.
  • Want to run without a battery
  • Love to tinker, always want a project, it's fun to experiment!

ETC

We're here to help each other. That's the spirit of the forum. Let's work together to solve these issues and come up with the ULTIMATE PMA guide.
 
OakBehringer said:
I'll be the first to say that I feel as though I have been had by the kits out there and the people marketing them.
Click to expand...

This has been repeatedly bought to the attention of the sheep that quote "stock charging systems are shit and i am buying a HHB PMA for my build":

There definitely seems to be statistical merit to their unreliability, if you look at how frequently similar problems are being reported on our forum. It sucks for those of us who have purchased PMA kit. We are using the forum to get help with the PMA systems we are running.
Click to expand...
.

No.............PMA systems have been used on bikes for almost as long as the XS650 has been built. If you look at the old PMA's that people were/are still, using off older bikes, then it is easy to see why the new ones are causing problems.

Seriously, a SHITLOAD of people on these forums have ditched their stock alternators for the PMA alternative. We have PMA questions. We want PMA answers.
Click to expand...

Buy a second hand unit and install or go back to your supplier, (you know the ones that still quote on there site that you have to ditch the old unreliable charging system and buy my PMAS upgrade).

There is NOTHING wrong with a PMA system. In some ways it is superior to the stock system. In some ways it is not. The PROBLEM is with the quality of parts that we have been sold.
Click to expand...

There is something wrong with these type of PMA systems. I think the problems without any solutions make your statement an oxymoron

Some of have no desire in going back to the stock system for real reasons:

  • Need more wattage to run accessories, such as heated gloves, or a heated jacket, because they're badasses who ride all winter.
  • Want to run without a battery
  • Love to tinker, always want a project, it's fun to experiment!

ETC

We're here to help each other. That's the spirit of the forum. Let's work together to solve these issues and come up with the ULTIMATE PMA guide.
Click to expand...

The spirit of the forum is to listen as well as inform. Why should the ones who have repeatedly said the stock systems are good if the correct maintenance is adhered to, now have to help solve this problem that is poor manufacturing and bad advice in the first place. HHB should be on here helping.

Solutiuon is to not buy a chinese crap PMA from these so called reputable sellers who make false statments and mislead you into buying an inferier product.

If you do persist in wanting to buy a Chinese PMA from these guys then one of the solutions to solving your problems is to get it re-coated with more resin.

Buy the way OakBehringer do you intend to hijack this thread as well
 
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OakBehringer said:
Awwwww, come on RG. We're not talking about the stock system!

I'll be the first to say that I feel as though I have been had by the kits out there and the people marketing them. There definitely seems to be statistical merit to their unreliability, if you look at how frequently similar problems are being reported on our forum. It sucks for those of us who have purchased PMA kit. We are using the forum to get help with the PMA systems we are running.

Seriously, a SHITLOAD of people on these forums have ditched their stock alternators for the PMA alternative. We have PMA questions. We want PMA answers.

There is NOTHING wrong with a PMA system. In some ways it is superior to the stock system. In some ways it is not. The PROBLEM is with the quality of parts that we have been sold.

Some of have no desire in going back to the stock system for real reasons:

  • Need more wattage to run accessories, such as heated gloves, or a heated jacket, because they're badasses who ride all winter.
  • Want to run without a battery
  • Love to tinker, always want a project, it's fun to experiment!

ETC

We're here to help each other. That's the spirit of the forum. Let's work together to solve these issues and come up with the ULTIMATE PMA guide.
Click to expand...

The alternators for the XS650 were never designed to supply enough wattage for heated gloves and/or heated jackets. To try using a stock alternator or a PMA for such use is almost sure to overload the electrical system.

Actually the stock alternator is rated at 16 amps at 5000 rpm, which is 224 watts. I believe the PMAs are rated at 200 watts, which would be a reduced output if my math is correct.

If you want to talk about PMA marketing, here's a few good examples from HHB site:

Quotes from his site:

"High Output 200 watts".......................as compared to what?

"Quality exceeds OEM equipment".....................definitely not true

"Highest grade copper windings".......................I doubt it

"High quality rec/reg"............................hyperbole for sure

"Stator is built with highest grade lamination materials and copper windings are triple insulated for maximum reliability."........................sounds like a used car salesman to me, and almost certain to be untrue.

HHB seems to be following Mikesxs formula for success. Buy cheap quality chinese/taiwan parts, and mark up the price for a hefty profit. A very good method for his business to make lots of money, but its up to each individual customer to decide if they are getting value for the money they spend.

If I recall, HHB also sold a "hydraulic clutch", which wasn't a real hydraulic clutch at all, but just a replacement for the clutch cable. It was way over priced, and generally of poor quality, and eventually stopped selling it.

Good luck with the "Ultimate PMA guide".
 
Can i point out, that there might be people on this forum who don't have the stock charging system anymore. For example, on one of my side projects (i bought a bike in pieces that someone had given up on) the stock system was gone. In its place were parts of a 3 phase system.

What about people that want to run with no battery.

Posturing about how great the stock system is and how dumb it was to invest in a PMA isn't really that helpful. And yes there are a lot of 'my PMA is overheating threads' so we can assume there probably is a component weakness.

But maybe it would be more constructive to put heads and experience together to further improve it? Lists of sources for better parts - real upgrades etc? It might also put pressure on the vendors to improve the product, no one likes bad PR....
Also remember there are likely thousands of these kits out there. The failure rate might actually be quite low on a numbers basis. It could come down to one bad run during manufacture...

From my point of view, i have one kit from Hugh. So far it has been fine, but thats only been one year. I also have an OEM YFZ350 stator sitting around but am yet to fit it. Speaking of those, an OEM one can run over 500US

http://www.ebay.com/itm/YAMAHA-YFM3...Parts_Accessories&hash=item258a725a33&vxp=mtr

Also having dealt with Hugh quite a few times, he never struck me as the kind of guy who would deliberately sell a weak product for maximum profit. I think its more likely his suppliers have told him one thing, and done another. But yeh i agree it would be nice if he posted something.
 
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Okay, I'll throw in here. I don't have any PMA charging system on my XS1Bs, but have worked on plenty that were built dating back to the '60s (Honda, Triumph, BSA, ...etc). As such, all I can offer is a likely theory that fits within my experiences and suspicions, past and present.

3-phase windings can get complicated. For a 3-phase, 3-wire stator, there's two styles, Delta (shaped like a diamond), and WYE (shaped like the letter Y, also called 'star'). Our bikes use the WYE configuration, as in pic #1. The center common tie point is floating, and not connected to ground.

View attachment 45157


Where it gets messy is the actual winding layout, with large numbers of coils, either series or parallel coil layout, as in the two left figures in pic #2.

View attachment 45158


Ideally, the coils should be wound tight, with proper overlaps and sealing insulation. They should also be wound in a specific direction, so as to maintain phase alignments. A well built stator would appear as this pic #3 (courtesy of Mrriggs PMA document):

PMA-Stator.jpg



Now, here's the scenario. After an initial supply of high quality parts are produced for the reseller, landing the contract, then, the contract (and/or manufacturing sector) are moved over to a lower quality sector, and/or underpaid/underskilled/untrained workers take over, or just one new worker is introduced, whatever. And, in keeping with modern business practices, quality control is shoved into the customer's lap, as in WallyWorld.

With this scenario, you now have the increased likelyhood of hastily/poorly wound coils, possibly even with some wound in the wrong direction, causing internal misphasing feedback and excessive overheating. There could also be multiple wiring interconnects, with poor solder joints, cross-connecting to other windings. And, all this can be buried where you can't see it. It would take a person skilled in stator windings to hopefully spot these errors, and specialized equipment to detect winding and misphase errors.

Maybe your first line of defense is a cursury visual inspection of a new or suspect stator, with a known good stator to compare against. Looking at Oak's stator here, it's difficult to tell if any of the windings are incorrect, but two winding on the far side of the pic appear burnt, and some of the coils don't look 'closely/tightly wound', raising suspicion of a winding error in that area.

View attachment 49494


Of course, in my mind, the only way to tell for sure would be to carefully disassemble/unwind the bad stator, and compare to a known good one. The resistances in these coil windings are so low that making useful diagnostics of proper winding practices, with standard voltmeters, may be near impossible...
 
Your theory makes sense until you ask yourself " How does Honda keep their quality standards so high, but ACME XS stator can't? "

Bottom line is. PMA's are a good design but aftermarket companies are just selling junk versions for the XS 650.
 
All you really need to know is clearly shown in that blown up pic of the stator. The little circle with "ND" in it. Get the genuine Nippon Denso parts.

I put my PMA together seven years ago (with used parts) and have put over 40,000 miles on it. I've worn out or broken many of the parts on this bike but the alternator just keeps going and going.
 
Here the differences can be seen between a stator from well known kit, (brand new),
full



a second hand stator from an older model, (VF 500),
full



and a brand new stator for a VN 800 drifter, (supposed to be XS650 compatible)
full



look at the windings and resin and i think these pics tell their own story.

The last Stator is $129 brand new
 
My windings were definitely loose when I took it off. I could move them around with my fingers. I highly doubt they were like that when I put it on.

The insulation on those pictured is much thicker than the stator I received from HHB.

That last stator pictured ($129) is made by ElectroSport industries, located in southern California, acquired by Procom. Their stators are "designed in the US, manufactured in China." I contacted them two days ago while trying to find an American manufacturer. Which is not to say that only quality parts are made in the US. They look much more well made than the HHB Chinese stator. Could be worth a try. Can't decide if that would be higher risk than a used V30 arriving in a working state off eBay.

The V30 stator looks thicker than the HHB stator. Does anyone know if it it will fit behind the HHB rotor? Excuse my ignorance, but would the HHB rotor be anything but dependable? It's just magnets, right? (Said in a tone that conveys "I know I'm about to be schooled for saying this.)
 
I have an electrosport ESG740, that I have been using for just over a year with absolutely no problem, paired with an FH016AA Mosfet/series reg/rec. The last time I checked the voltages were rock solid and It still looks exactly like the picture on the Electrosport website. Could be luck of the draw but I am pleased with this setup. Using the above parts with an xsCharge mounting plate and this rotor has yielded great reults. All total I have about $275 in the PMA and the only thing I bought used was the reg/rec (which are still available on ebay from 06-07 ZX6R for about $50).

Current prices are:
stator - $97 (on Amazon)
Flywheel - $101 (on Ebay)
Mounting plate - $50 (on Ebay)
Reg/rec - $50 (on Ebay)

So currently it would cost around $300 for the above listed parts.

I am also using a Ballistic Evo2 4 cell Lithium battery kick only.

Clayton
 
Thank you for the response. That looks like the same rotor I recieved with the HHB kit. Glad to hear your stator is still running strong after a year of use (I hope it continues to run great because your warranty just ran out - haha).

I see that you went with the FH016AA. That's a SHUNT (not series) reg/rec with a strong reputation. It's been recommended to get a series reg/rec, but I'm not convinced it's necessary to spend four times as much. A high quality MOSFET shunt should work fine, as you are demonstrating.

Cheers,
Adam
 
OakBehringer said:
The V30 stator looks thicker than the HHB stator. Does anyone know if it it will fit behind the HHB rotor? Excuse my ignorance, but would the HHB rotor be anything but dependable? It's just magnets, right? (Said in a tone that conveys "I know I'm about to be schooled for saying this.)
Click to expand...

I recently did a stator swap for a friend, replacing the HHB stator with a Nippon Denso unit. The Banshee bracket had to be machined to allow the thicker stator to fit behind the rotor.

The rotor itself looked about half done. The taper was roughly turned and didn't fit the crankshaft, and there were no drill marks to indicate that it had been balanced. An hour or so with a bearing scraper and lapping compound corrected the taper. I had no way to balance it so I have no idea how far off it was (if at all).
 

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