DanielBlack
XS650 Junkie
I'm not sure if there is more accurate estimation, but Stella's pretty early in the VIN range for a US D. 701027, with the range starting at 700101 going through 724061.
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Stella - 1977D survivor, back on the road.
DanielBlack
XS650 Junkie
As Pete reported, my new lighting upgrades are working out pretty well. Still a few bugs to work out to get to full function, but I'll post a schematic and such as soon as those are worked out.
Pete was tactful enough to leave out that on my way to lunch (10mi) Stella stopped three times. On the way home, she stopped twice more and for good. I was in a rush to get things buttoned up in time to meet Pete, so I only have myself to blame for not doing responsible in-the-neighborhood testing. This was the test ride, and testing she needed.
On the first stop the starter button didn't do anything (it was fine at initial startup) and for the rest of the day wouldn't do anything. On all stops prior to the last one, she would kickstart fine after a few moments. When she stopped for the final time, I found a blown main fuse. Replacing it, with the key off, immediately blew the next. At that point I decided I had work to do, and trying to figure it out on the side of the road with a work shift coming ever closer was bound to cause more frustration than I enjoy. I called a tow and have been troubleshooting at my leisure since. Here's what I've found:
Lighting circuits are A-OK. No faults found, voltage where it should be, nowhere it shouldn't. Works perfectly well as long as the issues below are removed from action. Starter also works perfectly fine with the soon to be described faults taken out of play.
By isolation, I've narrowed my issues to two obvious sources, not that they are necessarily the only ones:
1 - Key off, with the red and black wires attached to their rectifier posts and the 3 whites unattached, I am able to put a new main fuse in. As soon as I touch either the A or C phase to it's terminal, I hear the SSR (stock) click. If I don't pull back right away the main fuse blows. Diode checks on the rectifier come up with the following.
Rectifier: Ebay 3ph 30A bridge rectifier, mounted with heat sink compound to a plate of 1/8" aluminum about 6" square. New with this upgrade, and I admit to not testing it beforehand. I'm not 100% sure it was working perfectly from the start. New one on the way.
Regulator: VR-115 mounted to same plate as the rectifier. This component has been in action since October. With just a quick test before heading out to lunch, I found 12.7v at idle, 14.3v @ 2000rpm. Before the overhaul, with the stock rectifier, I saw a max of 13.8v. Rectifier short (blowing main fuse) occurs whether regulator is in line or not.
Alternator: Stock. Testing shows 0 ohms between all white wires. No continuity between any white wire and ground. I haven't yet checked the rotor and brushes.
2 - With this issue set aside and the rectifier left unplugged, I went through the different circuits. Main switched (brown) all good. Lighting (blue) all good. Ignition (R/W) not so good.
I find the Gill coil that came with the Boyer Micro Power blue box blows a 5A fuse in about 2 seconds. When testing for resistance, I get an intermittent 2.7Kohms (correct reading if it was solid) on the secondary coil and .3/.4 ohms (should have .6 ohms) on the primary.
On the primary, when I touch the leads it first reads 0.0 ohms and ramps up to the .3 or .4 in about the same time it blows a fuse. I'm thinking the coil was somewhat questionable to start, given the horrible corrosion I found on one the output towers. Must've been working overtime. I have an email out to Boyer to confirm my readings and the coil's health. If I need a new one, I'm looking at the Nology Profire 06D, but am very early in my research.
So there you have it. Bad rectifier. Probably bad coil. Everything else seems to be good, but I don't know what caused to faults to begin with. Could they be related? Could one cause the other?
I'm using a digital, auto-range, mid-grade Klein meter with resistance calibrated for zero.
The good news is before things went south Stella was idling much more smoothly, at lower RPMs, than before. The badly corroded lead was on the R cylinder and it's exhaust note is perfectly regular now, matching the L. I will reiterate very valuable forum advice that I failed to follow; do all of your electrical tests and optimization before moving towards carbs.
Pete was tactful enough to leave out that on my way to lunch (10mi) Stella stopped three times. On the way home, she stopped twice more and for good. I was in a rush to get things buttoned up in time to meet Pete, so I only have myself to blame for not doing responsible in-the-neighborhood testing. This was the test ride, and testing she needed.
On the first stop the starter button didn't do anything (it was fine at initial startup) and for the rest of the day wouldn't do anything. On all stops prior to the last one, she would kickstart fine after a few moments. When she stopped for the final time, I found a blown main fuse. Replacing it, with the key off, immediately blew the next. At that point I decided I had work to do, and trying to figure it out on the side of the road with a work shift coming ever closer was bound to cause more frustration than I enjoy. I called a tow and have been troubleshooting at my leisure since. Here's what I've found:
Lighting circuits are A-OK. No faults found, voltage where it should be, nowhere it shouldn't. Works perfectly well as long as the issues below are removed from action. Starter also works perfectly fine with the soon to be described faults taken out of play.
By isolation, I've narrowed my issues to two obvious sources, not that they are necessarily the only ones:
1 - Key off, with the red and black wires attached to their rectifier posts and the 3 whites unattached, I am able to put a new main fuse in. As soon as I touch either the A or C phase to it's terminal, I hear the SSR (stock) click. If I don't pull back right away the main fuse blows. Diode checks on the rectifier come up with the following.
- Red lead on +, Black lead on the AC terminals. .000, .447, .800
- Black lead on +, Red lead on the AC terminals. .000, .464, .449
- Red lead on -, Black lead on the AC terminals. .448, .465, .000
- Black lead on -, Red lead on the AC terminals. .808, .924, .000
Rectifier: Ebay 3ph 30A bridge rectifier, mounted with heat sink compound to a plate of 1/8" aluminum about 6" square. New with this upgrade, and I admit to not testing it beforehand. I'm not 100% sure it was working perfectly from the start. New one on the way.
Regulator: VR-115 mounted to same plate as the rectifier. This component has been in action since October. With just a quick test before heading out to lunch, I found 12.7v at idle, 14.3v @ 2000rpm. Before the overhaul, with the stock rectifier, I saw a max of 13.8v. Rectifier short (blowing main fuse) occurs whether regulator is in line or not.
Alternator: Stock. Testing shows 0 ohms between all white wires. No continuity between any white wire and ground. I haven't yet checked the rotor and brushes.
2 - With this issue set aside and the rectifier left unplugged, I went through the different circuits. Main switched (brown) all good. Lighting (blue) all good. Ignition (R/W) not so good.
I find the Gill coil that came with the Boyer Micro Power blue box blows a 5A fuse in about 2 seconds. When testing for resistance, I get an intermittent 2.7Kohms (correct reading if it was solid) on the secondary coil and .3/.4 ohms (should have .6 ohms) on the primary.
On the primary, when I touch the leads it first reads 0.0 ohms and ramps up to the .3 or .4 in about the same time it blows a fuse. I'm thinking the coil was somewhat questionable to start, given the horrible corrosion I found on one the output towers. Must've been working overtime. I have an email out to Boyer to confirm my readings and the coil's health. If I need a new one, I'm looking at the Nology Profire 06D, but am very early in my research.
So there you have it. Bad rectifier. Probably bad coil. Everything else seems to be good, but I don't know what caused to faults to begin with. Could they be related? Could one cause the other?
I'm using a digital, auto-range, mid-grade Klein meter with resistance calibrated for zero.
The good news is before things went south Stella was idling much more smoothly, at lower RPMs, than before. The badly corroded lead was on the R cylinder and it's exhaust note is perfectly regular now, matching the L. I will reiterate very valuable forum advice that I failed to follow; do all of your electrical tests and optimization before moving towards carbs.
Oh man Daniel, sorry to hear about you getting stranded on the side of the road. That is THE Pitts!
You seem to be on track running this down, you are very methodical, that's to your credit. Good luck, I know you will get Stella running good as new in no time!
You seem to be on track running this down, you are very methodical, that's to your credit. Good luck, I know you will get Stella running good as new in no time!
DanielBlack
XS650 Junkie
Thanks Bob. Truth be told, I'm having fun troubleshooting this one. But I better get moving on it if I want to be ready for Rovember.
Hahaha Rovember! I love it! The funs contagious! You know I was telling my wife just a little bit ago how much fun I've been having with my bike. I just get lost in it, even when I have setbacks, it becomes like a puzzle, a challenge to figure it out. Frankly sometimes it stretches my meager abilities, but I never fail to enjoy the process. Maybe someday I'll even get to ride this thing! Haha
DanielBlack
XS650 Junkie
Maybe someday, I sure hope so!
Hey Daniel - how goes it?
Aside from the electrical issues - did you get your fork lock working better? I'm pretty sure it just needs a little lube and gentle massage...
Pete
Aside from the electrical issues - did you get your fork lock working better? I'm pretty sure it just needs a little lube and gentle massage...
Pete
DanielBlack
XS650 Junkie
Hi Pete, I haven't been spending too much time in the garage these few days. I shot a small bit of penetrating oil in there and it's been sitting since. You're probably right about it just needing a little love. Thanks for showing that it does indeed work!
DanielBlack
XS650 Junkie
Hey, man, Lucille keeps your secrets. You should keep hers
Took my ignition lock off today. Dismantled, cleaned, polished, lubed and much loved. All original functionality has now been restored. No technical wriggling of the key is required now!!
DanielBlack
XS650 Junkie
Very good, Paul. I've been looking in on your electrical adventures. Nice work.
Pete here is talking about my steering lock. I had thought it was out of commission, but it turned out I just wasn't using the right fiddle technique. Working a little lube in there should free it up to work with less fiddling.
Pete here is talking about my steering lock. I had thought it was out of commission, but it turned out I just wasn't using the right fiddle technique. Working a little lube in there should free it up to work with less fiddling.
The locking mechanism is located at the bottom of the ignition lock and was very dry on mine so I lubed it with silicone grease when I cleaned the electrical contacts. I now get a very definite click between LOCK and LOCK + Parking Lights. It is not difficult to pull the lock apart and the reassembly is easy because there are location grooves to prevent it going back together in the wrong order.
Regarding bridge rectifiers:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Classic-m...360127?hash=item33c9c36dbf:g:SGgAAOSwInxXOPCG
Note: This seller does not sell 3-phase units.
This could be BS regarding reliability but after reading it a couple of months back I decided to spend 4x more on a bridge from Vishay (Owner of International Rectifier) rather than buy from China. I hope I have not wasted my money?? There are accounts on this forum of the cheap China bridges lasting for years.
Regarding bridge rectifiers:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Classic-m...360127?hash=item33c9c36dbf:g:SGgAAOSwInxXOPCG
Note: This seller does not sell 3-phase units.
This could be BS regarding reliability but after reading it a couple of months back I decided to spend 4x more on a bridge from Vishay (Owner of International Rectifier) rather than buy from China. I hope I have not wasted my money?? There are accounts on this forum of the cheap China bridges lasting for years.
DanielBlack
XS650 Junkie
Hmm, thanks Paul. Perhaps we're still not on the same page. The lock Pete and I are discussing is the steering lock in the stem. I believe you're talking about the ignition switch on the dash? One has nothing to do with the other. Or maybe this is a difference in years?
Interesting read on that Ebay link. Maybe not BS, but his writing style sure sounds like it.
I went with this one. Overkill amperage rating, I know.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/142314979852?ul_noapp=true
Interesting read on that Ebay link. Maybe not BS, but his writing style sure sounds like it.
I went with this one. Overkill amperage rating, I know.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/142314979852?ul_noapp=true
I get it now, my 81 Special has the steering lock incorporated into the ignition lock and your bike must have the separate lock for the steering like my old 75 RD250B had.
Bye for now.
Bye for now.
The single phase bridge rectifier is good to use with our 3 phase alternators, you just have to buy 2 of them. With 2 of them you get 8 diodes, but only need to wire up 6 of them. 2 left as spares.
DanielBlack
XS650 Junkie
To the electrical gurus: What do you say? With a rectifier showing the meter readings in post #322, is it possible for the bad rectifier to be the direct short to ground? And is it possible for the stray voltage to make its way through the white stator wires to the yellow wire feeding the SSR?
While I am far from novice when it comes to general electrical troubleshooting, I am still on the learning curve when it comes to electronics and alternators.
Now that I think of it, I didn't check continuity on those white wires to yellow through the stator. I could have confirmed my own hypothesis. I'll do so tonight, but is it possible in theory?
While I am far from novice when it comes to general electrical troubleshooting, I am still on the learning curve when it comes to electronics and alternators.
Now that I think of it, I didn't check continuity on those white wires to yellow through the stator. I could have confirmed my own hypothesis. I'll do so tonight, but is it possible in theory?
Yup - the earlier bikes had a lock on the steering stem / neck of the frame while the later ones (certainly the 1980-on Specials) had the steering lock incorporated into the ignition key switch.
I found that the position of the detent for the steering stem variant is not necessarily at the extreme lock position and aside from the gummed-up 40+ year old lock mechanism, you really do need to hunt around a bit to find that special spot where the key can push the pin home to lock the steering.
Pete
Daniel....................the readings for the rectifier in post #322, mean the rectifier has at least 3 bad diodes. Yes, the battery voltage can backfeed through the bad diodes, through the stator windings to the yellow lead and to the SR coil and finally to ground.
You say the white windings of the stator are 0 ohms. Well, they have such low resistance that its difficult to measure them. On my stator, white to white of the 3 combinations all measure 0.5 ohms. The yellow to any white measures 0.25 ohms.
Your meter may not be accurate when measuring down in the < 1 ohm region. If you have cheap meter leads, they also can introduce error into the measurement. Maybe borrow a higher quality meter.
You say the white windings of the stator are 0 ohms. Well, they have such low resistance that its difficult to measure them. On my stator, white to white of the 3 combinations all measure 0.5 ohms. The yellow to any white measures 0.25 ohms.
Your meter may not be accurate when measuring down in the < 1 ohm region. If you have cheap meter leads, they also can introduce error into the measurement. Maybe borrow a higher quality meter.
DanielBlack
XS650 Junkie
Thank you RG.
So the rectifier is definitely bad and could be my main fuse and SSR problems.
I can definitely try a different meter as I dig deeper into more careful stator checks.
Your point about inaccurate low ohm readings may come into play with my ignition coil as well. The primary should be .6ohms, I'm reading .3ohms. May not be a problem at all.
So the rectifier is definitely bad and could be my main fuse and SSR problems.
I can definitely try a different meter as I dig deeper into more careful stator checks.
Your point about inaccurate low ohm readings may come into play with my ignition coil as well. The primary should be .6ohms, I'm reading .3ohms. May not be a problem at all.
