Oh boy, looks like I won't be doing that one, lol. I'm charging OK I think and not burning out any components, so I think I'm good.

The weather broke here so I had the bike out yesterday. For Daniel's (and my own) sake, I took a few voltage readings, all done at the battery and with the headlight off .....

At rest, key Off - 12.6V
At rest, key On - 11.95V

Just after electric start .....

Idling 1100-1200 RPM - 12.8-13V
Revved - 14.5V

After 10 -15 mile ride (battery replenished) .....

Idling - 12.6V
Revved - 14V

Turning the headlight on above dropped idle volts to about 12.3. I would guess it would drop "Revved" volts by a few tenths as well, but I didn't check. I'll re-test some more today and get some "lights on" numbers. But, all this is illustrating what I mentioned to Daniel earlier - my charge rate drops off once my battery has been replenished. I'm thinking this is normal and just a function of the regulator. The regulator is "regulating", basically just doing it's thing.
 
The variances in the "charging" versus "charged" voltages are likely caused by the voltage drops between the battery, where the regulator senses that voltage, and wherever the voltage meter is connected. Higher voltage drops will exist during high-current charging, low voltage drops when the battery stops drawing all that current. PamcoPete bypassed this "voltage drop" issue with his direct-to-battery relay for the regulator...
 
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Good catch, RG. Do you recall any incidents of rotors with intermittent breaks in the winding?
The lads sometimes get part of the winding go open or short out, but that reduces the rotor resistance. We need to hear back from DB....................is his rotor (slip ring to slip ring) still around 5 to 6 ohms?? Has he looked very carefully at his brushes and brush wiring??
 
5T...............your voltages all look quite normal, and as long as the starter motor can easily start the engine, means your battery is healthy as well.You have no problems.
Quote:
" Is it as simple as touching the meter + to a brush screw and - to ground for volts? Or do you measure from brush to brush? "
Either method is the same electrically.
Measuring amps is simple. You just have to insert your VOM in series in the circuit you wish to measure. When measuring voltage, the circuit current does not go through the VOM, but measuring amps, the circuit current all goes through the VOM.
If the amp reading will be over 200 ma. you have to move your positive meter lead to the "10 amp" socket. The normal meter internals can only handle up to 200 ma., so by moving the meter lead to the 10 amp socket, the meter uses a shunt that is capable of handling up to 10 amps.

With our bikes, you would have to break the circuit that carries the current to the rotor. So, you would have to disconnect the green wire from the positive brush. One meter lead connects to the green wire, and the other meter lead connects to the positive brush. You may have the polarity wrong for the meter, but no concern, the display will just indicate a negative bar on the display. I suppose you could also find a way to make a break in the green wire at the voltage regulator.
 
Hmm, I'll have to go back with the correct methodology. For current, I did not put the meter in series. It was parallel, just touching the brush screws in the same way I measured voltage across them.

My rotor could be made brighter, but I'm getting a reading that wanders between 5 and 6 ohms. That's touching the probes directly to the rotor rings. Brushes and their wires look good.
 
Hmm, I'll have to go back with the correct methodology. For current, I did not put the meter in series. It was parallel, just touching the brush screws in the same way I measured voltage across them.

My rotor could be made brighter, but I'm getting a reading that wanders between 5 and 6 ohms. That's touching the probes directly to the rotor rings. Brushes and their wires look good.
Disregard my calculations for the resistance of rotor and brushes, as your measurements are not correct.
Over the years, when lads have electrical troubles, I usually don't ask them to measure current, because most don't understand how to do it. Its actually quite simple, once you understand the method.
Don't be concerned about the wandering 5 to 6 ohms. Low resistances are hard to measure. Cheap meter leads alone can cause the reading to vary from 0.5 to 1.0 ohms.
 
+1 on all of that!
On electrical matters, I will always defer to RG and 2M - but just reinforce: the only way to measure current (unless you're using an inductive meter which "clamps" on the wire) is to disconnect the circuit and put your meter into it in series with all of the other loads. Measuring between two points in an active circuit will not give you a usable measurement of the current in the circuit.

My late Dad - who was a "toaster" himself - always cautioned me that current measurement is a fair step-up in complication from voltage and resistance (or continuity) measurement. As RG says, you must have some sort of idea of how much current (how many amperes or amps) you expect so that you can set your meter to the proper level. Dad explained it to me (a mere mechanical engineer - or "plumber" as he liked to call me) in this way:
  • voltage is like water pressure - you can just stick a gauge into a pipe (which is like a wire) or into a water tank (i.e. a battery) and measure the pressure whether water is flowing or not. When the water flows, the pressure will drop (just like the voltage does when you start a bike);
  • electrical current is like the flow of water in a pipe and the only way to measure it is to open the pipe and have a look at what is going through it.
Resistance is the relationship between voltage and current and it is called Ohms Law after Georg Simon Ohm who was a German physicist in the 18-19th century. Ohm published his work in 1827 as a theoretical scientific treatise - and by golly, he was right on! Old Georg (no "e" on the end in Germany - its pronounced "gay-org") was a pretty sharp fellow (here's a photo from Wikipedia - he doesn't look like a very fun guy to me...but he does have a snazzy medal from the Kaiser around his neck):

Ohm3.gif


Ohm's Law states the following in a handy graphical format (much of which is also swiped from Wikipedia):
130px-Ohm%27s_law_triangle.svg.png
Ohm's law triangle
130px-Ohms_law_wheel_WVOA.svg.png
Ohms law wheel with international unit symbols

The interchangeability of the equation may be represented by a triangle, where V (voltage) is placed on the top section, the I (current) is placed to the left section, and the R (resistance) is placed to the right. The line that divides the left and right sections indicate multiplication, and the divider between the top and bottom sections indicates division (hence the division bar). In circuit analysis, three equivalent expressions of Ohm's law are used interchangeably:
74540cf41241949caaa632d5db5825b5db49821f

Where V = voltage, I = current and R = resistance. My Dad always used the symbol "E" for voltage and I noted that RG did the same thing the other day. I guess it is a toaster/EE" thingy but to me, it didn't make a lot of sense because voltage starts with a "V". I think they called "electromotive force" for a while and that is where the "E" came from.

I can add (and this does not exactly work for AC circuits..) that electrical power, which is measured in watts (after James Watt - a Scottish engineer who was one of the developers of the steam engine) is equal to VI or the multiplication of voltage times current. So, if you want to run a 50 Watt headlight, at 12 volts, it will take 50 / 12 = a little bit more than 4 amps of current. This means that the 200 watt alternator in our XS650 bikes can put out about 200 / 12 = 16.6 amps at full power.

That is why you cannot run a huge bank of fog lights on our bikes - without depleting the battery. They simply take too many amps of current.

Just one more thing: if you do all the math, a horsepower (which is a unit of mechanical work in the British measurement system) is equal to 746 watts and that is why you often see the HP of bikes in Europe written as xxx kW - or kilowatts. A kilowatt is 1000 watts or about 1.3 HP (just like a kilogram is 1000 grams and a kilometer is a 1000 meters).

So, a 45 HP Yamaha XS650 engine can produce 45 x 746 = 33,570 watts or 33.57 kW. of power. Thus, the 200 watt XS650 alternator when working at full power only consumes about: 200 / 33570 = 0.00595 or about 0.6% of the power being produced by the engine.
Some months ago somebody suggested that shutting their lights off or using LEDs would make the bike go faster because it would decrease the amount of power required to run the alternator. I guess in principle, there is an effect, but frankly, you would make your bike go even faster if you simply skipped that up-size on the fries and Coke at McDonald's a few times new month, because the alternator only consumes about half of one percent of the engine power being produced. The real reason to use LEDs is that they are much more reliable than incandescent bulbs.

OK - I think that I've made your eyes bleed enough for now. Let's all crack open a frosty BEvERage and relax!

Pete
 

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Despite a proper measurement of brush and battery currents still outstanding, I'm calling this settled.

110 miles on the first Windy Nation rectifier. Charge system is charging. Never above 14.2v, dropping to a reliable 13.8v with a good cruise.

*** Cheap Chinese rectifiers are not worth our time. ***

I'm done with testing and troubleshooting for a little while. There's riding to do, and Stella's in fine shape. This morning she rewarded me with a one kick start.

Hey, TimeMachine, please pop that cork.
 
Well that is good news DB! 14.2 volts is just perfection. The proof will be if it keeps your battery fully charged, over the next few months. No bench charger or battery tender allowed:)

The thing is that its hard to just say "Cheap Chinese rectifiers" are all bad. How do we know where Windy Nation is sourcing its parts?
They may be from China, which is the world's factory.

I bought my rectifier (actually 2 bridge rectifiers) from a local electronics store here in Calgary, 8 years ago. They were sourced from a company called www.nteinc.com, which I believe is in New Jersey. Were they north american made or made in China? I have no idea!
 
Of course, RG, there is a range of 'cheap'. I am speaking toward the $3 variety from a random Ebay seller vs. a $12 option from a company with some standing. Like I reported earlier, the difference of material and build quality was strikingly obvious.
 
Success!!!!

Just goes to show that often you get what you pay for. I agree with you in that we must be cautious about the really cheap stuff that ends up on Ebay. Because you bought through Windy Nation you paid a premium which will reflect a higher level of QC. I have a cheap Ebay high amperage bridge from China that I put in my MIG and it is still running well - sometimes we get lucky. I bought 2 different voltmeters for the XS from China on Ebay for £1.60 each. One lasted for about 3 readings then died - Unlucky .The other is running well - Lucky.

Anyway, we look forward to seeing some of the sights you visit on Stella - I would like to see you parked up by a Giant Cactus???
 
Daniel, great to hear you are getting some miles on the bike and good charge to the battery. Now keep your head up off those instruments and enjoy the SW environs. Looking forward to seeing your LED setup.
ee
 
Yup....its juuuussstttt about time to start working on that parts list, schematic and "how-to", Daniel.

ALL: DB is a busy camper who has a complex job, so this may take a little while, but his lighting set-up on Stella is absolutely worth the wait IMO.

Pete
 
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