Stella - 1977D survivor, back on the road.

Thank you, RG.

That does indeed clarify my two main questions.

1) Why, while possible to set lower, choosing 1500 might not be best.
2) If not possible to set lower, is being forced to have a high idle a sign of bad wear or tune to be heeded.

Personally, I took '"is it OK" as "will this harm my bike." If so, I was very interested in learning why. I appreciate your elaboration.
 
The high idle directly relates to selecting gear from neutral, and the extra snap in the drive train when engaging gear. All XS650's will have a clunk going into first gear. This clunk is dampened through those springs on the back of the clutch basket. Because this is a weak point, if the idle is more than the recommended 1100/1200rpm, especially as high as 1500rpm the springs have to account for the extra strain put on them by the higher revs.

Try sitting on your bike and idle at 1200 then engage 1st gear. Now try it with the bike revved to 1500 and you will see my point.
 
I changed the oil and checked filters after my first 500 miles.

At the first service I had seen bits of black plastic and aluminum. I assumed this was cam chain guide and planned on close observation for debris in the next few change intervals along with proper tension.

At 500 miles, there is more of the same debris. I should probably get comfortable pulling the motor, but for now I'll continue to watch the next few intervals and hope it diminishes.
 
What you may be seeing is long term build-up. The oil may not have been changed and filters cleaned often enough by the previous owner. It took a good 6 or 7K miles and multiple oil changes & filter cleanings before my filters started coming out clean. The small rubber bits may be from the #4 starter gear. There's a rubber damper ring attached to it and it can start chunking off in little bits. Here's a pic of one that's been doing that from a recent thread .....

 
Thank you. Quite possibly, the starter grinds when used and the plastic bits look like the wear pattern shown. I've been only using the kick to rule the starter out.

That build-up is exactly what I'm hoping it to be. There are no alarming noises, so I figure a phase II overhaul can be postponed at least a year or so. There will be plenty of miles before then to see how it goes.

http://www.xs650.com/threads/starter-gear-again.47412/
 
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I've definitely come across that info before, but having decided the kick start was there for a reason, it's down the list to be dealt with. I got tired of replacing wet cells (they need constant attention in my clime) so I've been running my 150cc no battery, no starter for the last year or so. As long as it doesn't stall at stops, I don't mind kicking at all. Hence my interest in solid, reliable idle.

Is that gear non-ferrous? The metal bits in the oil is.
 
Hmm. Perhaps the aluminum cam chain guide then? The sump filter magnets held only some sludge-like gunk. All the actual metal bits were floating free.
 
Hi DB:

I think the the cam chain guide shoe (the part that normally wears) is actually made or a sort of black glass-filled composite material. The aluminium components that may be subject to wear would be the engine cases, cylinder head castings and the pistons and connecting rods - although the moving parts in the 650 (except the pistons) are all running in ball, needle or roller bearings and these bearings are all made of steel.

All of that sounds a bit alarming, but of course, but consider this: the P/O may have never cleaned the two engine oil filters. If so, the aluminium bits that you're now finding may have been there since the bike was brand new - and that's ok as they may very well be simply the leftover debris from the machining operations at the Yamaha factory back in the 1970's and not particle due to parts wearing out in service. That is why all new and re-built engines should have a complete oil AND filter change once the break-in period is completed. By that time, any debris from the mfg processes will have come loose and (hopefully) be trapped in the filters. The problem with the XS650 are:
1) it has TWO engine filters;
2) one of them (the sump) is a bit of a pain to get at;
3) and finally, many people seem to think that changing the TWO filters is sort of "optional".
Consequently, I'll bet that a lot of the bikes on the forum have had the little kidney shaped filter changed only occasionally and that many of them have NEVER had the sump filter changed.

So, Daniel, my advice is to change both filters now and monitor them for a few thousand miles before digging into an engine teardown. If something is coming unglued inside that engine, you'll see clear evidence of it in the two filters down the road.

Pete
 
Thank you, Pete.

I thought the aluminum bits might be the piece of the guide the shoe is attached to. My understanding was/is that after the shoe gets torn up, and not replaced, the base metal of the part gets attacked.

5t's suggestion of the starter gear does seems like the culprit of the plastic bits. The non-ferrous metal doesn't quite match though.

You make very good general points with which I'm mostly familiar.

For this bike, we can assume the original machining has been flushed out and there has been at least one filter change in its life. A PO put in a aftermarket reinforced sump filter and the Heiden side cover cooler with the real cartridge replacements. The two POs I know about are both full adults and bike enthusiasts, seemingly the type to do proper maintenance. One runs what seems to be a reputable custom seat company.

That said, I don't believe there has been any work done in the motor, ever. All possibilities for worn parts are valid at this point.

Your advise of taking it easy and keeping an eye on the filters in the next few changes is exactly the route I'm taking with it.

All conjecture, not too worried, just an awareness that I'll get into that motor some day in the future. Until then, careful maintanance, adjustment, tuning, observation and listening.
 
Daniel, I just finished reading this entire thread. Very informative and well done. I can't wait until I get my hands on one.....the search continues. But you can bet this forum and your thread will be much needed reference material for me.
 
Thanks, Mailman. I'm very much looking forward to your thread as soon as yours arrives home from Colorado.

My Stella and I have been racking up the commuting miles over the last two weeks, 850 since purchase, so here's an update.

With a crazy work schedule, I haven't had too much time to work on her and I had no luck here in town finding a properly sized clamp for the carb boots. So I've been running her in the condition I last reported: freshly cleaned carbs, new genuine stock jets, mix screw 3/4 turn out from spec to help get rid of some decel pop, synced, but not dialed in for mix per cylinder.

She can hold a steady 1200 rpm idle, but dies too often for my taste upon med/fast decel to a stop or R turn. Raising idle to 1500 reduces the chance for stalling. But, sometimes the idle changes every time I stop. I may set it at 15, and the next time I stop it's at 18. Next time, it's back at 15. I've stopped adjusting it everytime I come to stop and have given up on keeping the idle at 1200. Setting it at 1400 puts it in the 12-1800 range and keeps stalls at bay. I've got 'BS38 carb clamps' coming in the mail from Mike's and will start back up with dialing in those carbs once the boots are tight.

I'm going to measure my actual rolling distance, but my RPM:mph doesn't match Pamcopete's excel spreadsheet by ~300 based on the stock 18" wheel. In 5th, with a 18/34 sprocket set on a 18" wheel, I'm running ~4000rpm at 55mph. ~5000 at 70. That's on a non-stock 120/90 tire, and I understand the tach mechanism is less than accurate.

She's running very smooth, almost imperceptible vibration 45-6000. I actually feel more vibe at 35-4000, but it feels good. When I was first looking to upgrade from my 150cc, I was reading up on Enfields. Those guys spoke about cruising at a speed where there was a bit of 'space between thumps'. I imagine that is akin to what I feel at lower rpm. It's like I can feel the pulse of the motor.

Ive got an appointment with 'rontheseatmaker' on Monday to make a plan for my new seat. He advertises on Craigslist and Facebook, but I first heard of him from the local chapter of the Antique Motorcycle Association. I'm going to have him build a straight dual seat with subtle shaping on my stock pan a la the early XS's or the classic Brits it's based on. Not sure yet if I'll go for the stock XS lengthwise stitching, horizontal bars, or a daimond pattern. Probably the lengthwise stitch. I've got the original chrome trim that I'll have him use, but opting for no cross strap. For this Sonoran sun, UV-resistant marine vinyl. ~$200 delivered. Any thoughts, comments, warnings, questions to ask of the seat maker?

Also on Monday, I'm going to give MMM a call and get some rear shocks going. I've gone for the 'better' options when talking about tires, brakes, lights, etc., but SWMBO is starting to ask where I am on budget and I loathe to expend all political capital. So, it looks like Progressive 412s may be the ticket here. My research shows it as the 'good' option; tons better than the shot originals, but not nearly as good as other options such as Ikon or Hagon. On this one, serviceable must be good enough, I fear.

Also on the subject of suspension, I have a consistent fork shake upon take off. Less when taking off after a very easy stop. I'm thinking it may be a sticktion thing as it happens when the suspension shifts rearward and the fork extends. I haven't yet dealt with the front suspension at all, and a fork oil change is most definitely in the works for the coming week. A PO installed Progressive springs, but I'm not sure what's in there beyond that.

Also in the works is a newly manufactured Craven L rack. Newly made and shipped across the pond with mounting hardware, it's less expensive than the vintage examples I've found on eBay. But at this time, I'm going to hold off on the matching panniers due to the aforementioned budget. Besides, I had planned on keeping them attached to the bike for general use and having been cautioned against running them empty, (5twins again) I fear fiberglass bags might not be best for me. They sure are pretty, though. I may buy some of their mounting hardware (they've got individual parts available for restorations) and build some plywood boxes. Something basic, clean, and classy in which to throw a few bags of groceries.

So here we are. Running well for the most part, carbs to tune as soon as the boots are tight, seat to be commissioned, rear shocks to be replaced, cargo to be solved. It'll be a good week.

One last thing:

If the warm personal feelings of ownership along with diy garage work weren't enough, I can't go anywhere without some stranger commenting on this machine.

'Nice bike!' yelled out of windows while at stoplights. 'I used to have one just like it!' with facial expressions of youthful memories and sellers' remorse. My favorite: 'I miss my bike more than my house, and you've got a real nice one' from a member of our homeless population.

I never before understood the draw of vehicular hobbies. Vehicles were a tool to get here and there. Then I started wrenching on this one.
 
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Yes, do change your fork oil. Forks are a very neglected item on most bikes. Fork oil warms a bit in use I'm sure, but it doesn't get real hot like motor oil. Because of that, I guess people don't figure it needs changing like motor oil does. Granted, it doesn't need changing as often, but it does need it. I'd say every 10 to 15K is good. It does get dirty too. I think dirt works its way in past the seals over time. On the last set I renovated, the oil came out black as coal and the insides were all coated with black sludge too. A thorough cleaning of all parts and the lower and tube insides was required.

If you check the specs for your '77 forks, you'll find Yamaha speced 20wt. oil for them. I think they got this wrong. They speced 10wt. for all the later years. '77 was the first year for the 35mm forks and I think they just goofed when choosing the oil weight. I recommend you go with 10wt. but use a little more than the spec. The stock amount is just under 6 ounces per leg. Use 7 ounces. This gives a real improvement you can feel. These forks just plain work better with a bit more oil in them. The extra oil will also reduce the nose dive during braking.

The major problem with these forks is they're over dampened. They work OK over the big bumps and once they get pumping, but they don't respond to the little stuff or the first in a series of bumps very well. You can fix this by doing what's called the Minton Mods to your damper rods. This involves drilling the oil holes slightly larger so they flow more. This will better the fork's reaction to the little stuff and greatly improve day to day normal riding where that's what you mostly encounter. The forks will be much more supple riding. The little bumps will now be absorbed, not transferred up through the bars to jolt you.

If the P.O. followed the manual specs to the letter, then you may have 20wt. oil in your forks. That, combined with stock over dampened damper rods could be responsible in part for your little head shake. The forks could be experiencing a momentary hydraulic lock with the heavy oil and smaller than ideal damper rod oil holes. Like I said, the forks work pretty good once they get going, they just don't start out as well as they could.
 
Thank you, 5twins.

I've seen people recommend actual fork oil only, standard motor oil, and ATF. I believe you're recommending straight 10w motor oil?
 
No, use only real fork oil. I don't know what's wrong with people. They'll put just about anything in their forks, short of pissing in there, lol. Now, I could see the need to find substitutes if actual fork oil was a rare commodity, but it's not. It's easily obtained just about anywhere. Granted, it does cost more per quart than motor oil, but you're not changing it every 1000 miles either. For the amount of time and use you get out of it, I think the cost balances out and is justified.
 

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