Still over charging,getting frustrated!

[XS650D]

I have been having over charging problems for a while now on my 77 Standard ever since i installed Mikes Combo Reg/ Rec.It charges at 15.1 Volts and keeps blowing my rear tail light running light.Plus probably baking my new battery and Rotor.I contacted the company that sells the unit and they advised that i prob have a voltage drop in a wire some were,so i went thru the entire harness connections and even changed the key switch but no change.Before i return to the old Reg or get a different Reg (VR-115) i combed the tech section and found an old post stating that on a 77 to check Continuity on the Reg Green wire to Green brush wire,Black Reg wire to black brush wire,Brown Reg wire to key switch Voltage.I have correct 14.5 Volts on Brown with bike running and will not increase so good there,but i get continuity from Green Reg wire to either black or green brush wire and i also get Continuity on Black Reg wire to either Brush wire green or black,Is this correct or is something wired wrong.Thx

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[retiredgentleman]

Did you have a wire running from the Mikesxs rec/reg unit's case to a good ground connection? The case must be grounded, or else the alternator output will go very high.

You must have an instruction sheet from Mikesxs. Did you wire the rec/reg exactly as the instructions say?

Saying you got continuity does not have much meaning, because you're dealing with a very low resistance circuit. Disconnect the wire terminals at the brushes and then measure the resistance to each terminal. This way the 5 ohms of the rotor windings is removed from the circuit.

 

[5twins]

On the stock regulator, the green and black wires are the same green and black wires that connect to the brushes. They run from the regulator to the brushes. I would assume the MikesXS unit is the same. You would see continuity between the green or black at their brush and at the regulator because you're checking both ends of the same wire.

 

[peanut]

if its a 77 using a later combined reg /rect unit, shouldn't both the Stator brushes be isolated ?

I was thinking if the op is using the original 77 stator, the inner ground brush will be going straight to ground via the brush holder and Stator body and not via the regulator

 

[XS650D]

Yes RG,I got the instructions with the unit and installed as per including adding 2 good grounds,one to black wire in plug and one from reg/rec to frame,(made sure they were clean of paint ect) The Voltage will go up and down with throttle,not a problem there,but anything over 2000 rpm it will go to 15.1 volts and stay there until i let off throttle.I have tried hooking up my tester and going for a long ride as Mikes stated that it will go to 15 volts until battery is fully charged then drop down to 13.5 to 14 .5 Volts.I have a brand new battery that had 12.8 volts (not running) and after an hr off running its still at 15.1 at 2000+ rpms.I was going to take bike in to a shop but at $85/hr to Diagnose i decided for $30 to get a VR-115 Reg and try first.Ricks Motorsports says that any voltage drop will be added to battery voltage to compensate on there Reg/Rec (Mikes) and with this old bikes elecrical connectors it wont take much to get to 15.1,Heck even the new key switch theres a drop of .3 volts.I think to get this unit to work rite i would have to solder every connection on bike.

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[CDNTX650]

if its a 77 using a later combined reg /rect unit, shouldn't both the Stator brushes be isolated ?

I was thinking if the op is using the original 77 stator, the inner ground brush will be going straight to ground via the brush holder and Stator body and not via the regulator

that's what I was thinking.

I'll plug Oregon motorcycle parts regulator here. I used one on my 74. It's adjustable so I set it to 14.2 volts. No more battery boiling. A seriously nice little piece.

Even bought one for 71 valiant as it charges at 14.8...which I think is to high with good 12v to it and a good ground reference. Just ran new field wires over to the alternator as the Val sends a hot to the field coil and controls the side after. While the Xs grounds one side and controls the hot to the field.

 

[peanut]

Yes RG,I got the instructions with the unit and installed as per including adding 2 good grounds,one to black wire in plug and one from reg/rec to frame,(made sure they were clean of paint ect)

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As I understand it and hopefully someone will correct me if I am wrong.

There are two types of stock charging systems on the XS650.'

Early bikes pre 1980 had seperate rectifiers and regulators and the alternator was grounded at the stator because only the positive brush holder on the stator was insulated from ground.

1980 and after bikes had a combined rectifier and regulator and the charging system was grounded by the regulator . on these bikes both brushes are insulated from the Stator.

If you put a late rect/reg on an early Stator I had always understood that you should insulate the brush holder from the Stator so that the Alternator wasn't grounded by the stator but by the comined reg/rectifier.

If you are using an early stator with a late combined rectifier/regulator I believe you should isolate both brush holders on the Stator.
post 4 by pamco pete
http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15141

 

[5twins]

Yes, that is true, but he isn't using a late type reg/rec. He has one supposedly made to work on the early systems, one who's regulator portion would "regulate" power to the outer brush.

I don't know if or why it would make a difference, but you might try hooking the reg/rec's black only to the black in the harness like the original was. Don't ground it separate.

2M discovered an interesting fact on his early model. The black "ground" wire connected to the inner brush doesn't connect to anything else but the regulator. It doesn't splice into other ground wires in the harness or run to ground itself. I haven't checked my '78 yet but I think all the early set-ups ('70-'79) may be this way. The black wire connected to the brush isn't supplying a ground to it, it is picking one up from it and sending it to the regulator. Like I said, I don't know why or if supplying a ground to the regulator in this manner, as opposed to grounding it's black wire directly, will effect it's operation, but maybe it does?

 

[XS650D]

The entire brush assembly for both is plastic with a black wire connector on the outside and a green wire connector on the inside (on top off plastic holding brushs).Does that mean its grounded or not grounded,i would think that the screws that hold the brushes on would screw into metal behind the plastic but have not looked.On previous posts i understood that i did not need nylon screws holding the brushes.My electrical is all original on my 77,doubt anything was changed and the reg.rec i received from Mikesxs states its for the 79 and older models part# 24-2089 Solid state reg/rec 70-79 on instructions.What am i missing here

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[XS650D]

Actually 5T thats the way i had it originally and then tried adding an extra ground to frame but still same result.

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[XS650D]

My Black wire from reg goes to outter brush,is that unusual

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[5twins]

Yes, you may have the brushes hooked up wrong. The black wire should go to the inner grounded brush, the top screw connection. The green wire should go to the outer brush, the lower screw connection .....

 

[retiredgentleman]

5twins picture shows the correct wiring for 1970 to 1979 alternator.

Have you done the connections as follows from Mikesxs instruction sheet:

24-2089

green.......................................XS650 black (inner or right brush) this brush is grounded by metal screws.


orange......................................XS650 green (outer or left brush) this brush is insulated from ground.

If all that is correct, then get rid of the poor quality chinese junk being sold by Mikesxs, etc., and buy a nos
VR-115 and a 3-phase rectifier from E-bay.

 

[5twins]

Well, that certainly confuses things, lol. My post 2 above pertains to the stock regulator and how it's wires connect. I have no clue how that MikesXS contraption hooks up. I clicked on the "Install Instructions" link on their web site and all it shows is a wiring diagram, and it's for a 1981, lol. That is ABSOLUTELY no help.

 

[XS650D]

Yes that pic is exactly how mine is wired.Time for a different Reg,got a Standard VR-115 on order from standard products,i will look for the Rec u mentioned also.
Thx

 

[XS650D]

5T ,IT appears my 77 is wired exactly like that but my question is on the 1 screw that is regulated or Notgrounded,does that screw not thread into the Stator Body at the back,or is it a shorter screw?

 

[5twins]

You want a 3 phase rectifier with at least a 25 amp rating. A 30 or 50 will work fine too. eBay is loaded with them. Get one with a heat sink attached and you won't have to add your own .....

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...r.TRS0&_nkw=3+Phase+Bridge+Rectifier&_sacat=0

I just got around to finally installing my VR115 the other day. It's just plain wonderful. I changed the rectifier out a couple seasons ago but honestly didn't notice much, if any change in charging output. But it was still good to know I now had a more modern unit that supposedly operates a bit more efficiently.

I have a LED charge indicating light that changes colors as the charging output increases. It would go "green" (13.2V or above) by about 2K but would intermittently and irradically go back to orange (12.4 to 13.2V) above that. The charging rate or output from that old stock regulator just wasn't consistent. With the VR115 it now goes green and stays green. I checked the voltage at the battery when revved and I'm getting a steady 14.3 volts.

It's common for the rotors on these bikes to go bad. Part of that is due to just plain old age of course, but another factor is they are over-worked by the spastic stock regulator.

 

[5twins]

Here are the two brush holders used on the 650. Note that some of the brush screw connections have an isolated nut incorporated into the brush holder .....

If you look at the back side, you'll see the stator housing is cut out around those so the connection doesn't ground to it. This is the later '80-on style with both brush connections isolated. I don't have a pic of your early version but it will have only the one screw connection isolated, the bottom or outer brush connection, the one that sends the "regulated" power from the regulator .....

The three mounting screws for your inner brush screw directly into the stator housing and ground that brush.

 

[XS650D]

Thx 5T,Great info and pics,really simplifies things for me.Amazing!

 

[peanut]

5twins....which charging setup is it where the charging output is controlled by the regulator grounding the ground wire from the stator rather than regulating the 12v+ to the stator ?
I thought it was the regulators of the 1980+ bikes which grounded the green stator wire to control the charging or have I got that wrong ?