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The Centerstand Challenge - Lift Assist Handle

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by TwoManyXS1Bs, Aug 8, 2016.

  1. TwoManyXS1Bs

    TwoManyXS1Bs BBQ Hunter Top Contributor

    To avert hijacking, and focus on this single topic, this is a branch-off of JetMechMarty's thread:

    http://www.xs650.com/threads/did-not-make-it-home-in-one-piece.46473/

    I messed-up my right arm doing something stoopid, trying to muscle the bike up onto the centerstand in poor conditions. Can't do the centerstand dance normally now, so need an alternative method. Getting old I guess. Others have expressed interest in something in the way of making the centerstand dance easier, especially with saddlebags.

    Lots of helpful hints and tips in Marty's thread, including RetiredGentleman's boards/plywood, and Grizld1's "bootstrap" technique.

    But, Gordon has a great idea about some sort of a swing-out lift-assist handle Hence, this thread.

    I used a strap trick to get the bike on the centerstand. Used an old tie-down strap, with included hook.

    Slip the strap over your shoulder, hook into the frame near the shock upper.
    Starting with bike on sidestand, left hand grabs left handgrip.
    Apply a little upward lift with the strap, while getting the bike vertical.
    Right foot on centerstand lever. Right hand, well..., in my case, stuck in the shirt.
    For you healthy chaps, right hand gripping the frame/bar in the usual manner.
    Step/press down on centerstand lever.
    Feel for getting both centerstand pads firmly on the ground, they'll help to hold the bike level.
    Lift the bike with the strap while stomping down on the centerstand lever, as though you're trying to tear them apart.
    *Bingo*, bike's now on centerstand.
    [​IMG]
     
  2. TwoManyXS1Bs

    TwoManyXS1Bs BBQ Hunter Top Contributor

    michaelpthompson's posting shows that his grab handle was sawed-off:

     
  3. retiredgentleman

    retiredgentleman XS650 Guru Top Contributor

    Good idea 2M, to start a dedicated thread. Yes, I find using a 2 X 6 in my garage works well, but of course when I'm at another location, out on the road somewhere, its of no value. I will be interested in seeing what the lads come up with. Let the brain storming begin. I guess the ultimate design would be an electrically driven screw jack.............just push a button on the handlebar and a small motor, through high ratio gearing, drives the screw jack downward and lifts the bike. Ummmmm....................OK a weight penalty is a problem!
     
    TwoManyXS1Bs likes this.
  4. TwoManyXS1Bs

    TwoManyXS1Bs BBQ Hunter Top Contributor

    Gordon in nc acquired a pivoting footpeg to study its options:

     
  5. TwoManyXS1Bs

    TwoManyXS1Bs BBQ Hunter Top Contributor

    Thinking on Gordon's idea, a Google search on "center stand lift handle" pops-up a bunch of swing-out style lift handles.
    Most are for for BMWs, but found this thing for Ducatis.

    LiftHandle.jpg

    Our XS's just so happen to have an angled frame section in front of the shock that may be a suitable mount zone for something like that.

    LiftHandle-XS1.jpg
     
  6. TwoManyXS1Bs

    TwoManyXS1Bs BBQ Hunter Top Contributor

    Centerstand geometry and physics:

    This pic shows an XS1B's centerstand starting point.
    The relative distances between the step/ball, ground pads, and frame pivot, shows a disadvantageous leverage ratio.
    Maybe the later 74-on frames and centerstands have a better geometry?

    XS1B-Centerstand-01.jpg

    Once up on the centerstand, I can slide a 1-1/2" thick board under the tire, showing how high this thing goes up.

    XS1B-Centerstand-02.jpg

    The area just below the seat latch, ahead of the shock, has room for some sort of lift handle.

    XS1B-Liftpoint-01.jpg
     
  7. fredintoon

    fredintoon Fred Hill, S'toon. Top Contributor

    Hi 2-many,
    yeah, there you are with a strained arm, no burly friends or family handy, need to get the bike on it's centrestand and either they didn't put a lifting handle on your bike or some moronic PO has cut it off.
    "F*ck it, I'll show 'em, I'll make one!" Right.
    Here's a shade tree mechanic's way to do that.
    Go to your XS650 parts pile. Find a passenger footpeg. Bolt it onto the leftside top shock bolt. Upside down.
    5 minutes work plus however long it takes to root through the parts pile.
     
  8. TwoManyXS1Bs

    TwoManyXS1Bs BBQ Hunter Top Contributor

    Hey, RG! Oh, yeah, electric screw jack. Gives new meaning to "electric leg".
    How about something a little more exciting, like a modified version of the Kaufman starter?
    Insert a 410 cartridge, 'click', *blammo*, bike's on centerstand (or the roof)...
     
  9. TwoManyXS1Bs

    TwoManyXS1Bs BBQ Hunter Top Contributor

    Good one, Fred! That's the direction we're headed.
    But that may be too high for some of us, or blocked by saddlebags.
    Keep 'em coming...
     
  10. weekendrider

    weekendrider Iron Horse cowboy Top Contributor

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    2M unless you go directly into the rear down tube with a bung. Looking at Gordons wouldn't the handle bracketing be a problem for removal and install of the side cover?

    Looks like you'll need an air pump with that electric stand?


    German engineering with an accessory.
     
  11. retiredgentleman

    retiredgentleman XS650 Guru Top Contributor

    Kaufman starter....................interesting, but would scare the hell out of nearby folks, and a 911 call would have the local police Swat team zoom in to "kick some butt".
    I must say the Flight of the Phoneix is a favourite movie...................Jimmy Stewart wasn't just play acting, he flew bombers in WW 2. I didn't care much for the sequil movie.
     
  12. 5twins

    5twins XS650 Guru Top Contributor

    17,627
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    I still have the factory lift handle on my '78 Standard but my bag mounts do block it somewhat, and really do with a bag on there .....

    [​IMG]

    With a bag on, I am forced to use just a couple fingers on the handle's rear return leg. But, the bike still goes up pretty easy. This 650 is the easiest bike I've ever owned to put on the centerstand. There are a couple reasons for this, because of mods or changes I've done. First, I have slightly longer than stock rear shocks. The bike sits a little higher and doesn't need to be lifted as much to get it on the stand.

    I have a couple mods to my stand and I think both make it easier to deploy. First is grease fittings on the pivots. This really makes a difference and I consider it a "must do" for any 650. Rusty pivot bolts bind up when trying to deploy the stand and that makes it even harder to do.

    [​IMG]

    Second mod is my braced tang. Like many others, my tang broke. When I fixed it, I added bracing like the later stands have. I believe this makes the stand work better. The tang flexes less so more of the force you input by standing on it gets through. Deploying mine is mostly all standing on the tang and very little lifting on the handle.

    [​IMG]
     
    TwoManyXS1Bs likes this.
  13. wesleyonoel

    wesleyonoel XS650 Enthusiast

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    Never paid much attention to center stand application technique until it became a topic of discussion. My scooter is a '73 TX - stock configuration, stock sized tires, no saddlebags or anything other add-on's. Went for a ride to gather a newspaper late last week and made it a point to remember center stand parking technique. Here goes............ Dismount on left side of motorcycle holding left handlebar grip (overhand, palm down) with left hand to steady in upright position while facing left side of motorcycle. Right hand grabs beneath seat on frame rail immediately to the rear of the upper shock mount (underhand, palm upward). Motorcycle is now being held front and back with left and right hands. Lower center stand with right foot applying enough pressure to the lever to insure both "feet" of the stand contact parking surface evenly. Once level parking position is found. the work begins. Apply additional downward pressure on center stand lever with right foot while pulling up and slightly back with right hand. Left hand does little work beyond insuring front wheel remains in a straight forward position. Seldom use side stand if a center stand is available. Parking with the center stand has become second-nature to the extent describing the procedure required a bit of study. If sense of balance is good, joints and arm muscles in good health, parking surface fairly level and firm give it a try. Technique will become increasingly easy with practice and repeated application.
     
  14. Brassneck

    Brassneck XS650 Guru

    Back in the day, before I spent some time cleaning up my garage, I had some 1/2" ply wood scraps laying about from a boat project I was working on...More than a few times, I happened to have the bike's rear tire on one of the scraps while the center stand was free to connect with the actual floor (meaning not sitting on the scrap of wood) and found getting the bike on the center stand a LOT easier. Granted, this was only in my garage...but there's likely a solution to be had in there somewhere. Of course since then I have A) cleaned my garage, and B) gotten taller rear shocks...which makes getting on the center stand a breeze. So that would be my first vote...taller shocks. :)

    Another thought...looking at the electric stand gizmos in Weekendrider's post, if you've ever taken apart a car's power seat base, you'll find all sorts of 12v. motors used for seat adjustments, and I bet one of those motors and w/screw mounts could be fit with a little bit of work to power the centerstand. Might be fun to play with...albeit, add a little weight to the bike.

    I happen to have two sets of power seat bases (from a BMW Z3) that I'm not using if anyone wants to play around with them.
     
  15. IS THIS THE GYMPY THREAD ? HA!

    Just a side note, my father was seconded to the RAAF UK from the New Zealand (RNZAF) during WWII, he told me when I was a kid that he was flying a night fighter (Beaufighter) over occupied territory and heard Jimmy Stewart on the radio, said that he had the most distinctive voice and you couldn't miss him for miles.....

    now back to the gympy thread...sorry for the hijack.....
     
  16. Well, I did consider sawing about 12mm out of each leg but with 10mm already sawed from the cross bar of a later stand, I suspect weakness could be an end result.
     
  17. fredintoon

    fredintoon Fred Hill, S'toon. Top Contributor

    Hi Mick,
    now that you've hijacked the thread let's not waste the diversion.
    My father-in-law worked at BAC during WW2 and most likely built the Beaufighter your dad flew in.
    Glad he made it, lots of Beau pilots didn't.
    EDIT seems they were a bit of a swine to land but oh my don't be in front of it's 4 cannons and 6 machine guns:-
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Beaufighter ENDEDIT
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2016
  18. TwoManyXS1Bs

    TwoManyXS1Bs BBQ Hunter Top Contributor

    Cool. Airplane stuff. But (rattle, rattle) on with the show...

    There are numerous documents and videos out there demonstrating the proper "Centerstand technique".
    CenterstandMethod01.jpg

    They all have the common instruction to step onto the centerstand pedal and lift the bike.
    CenterstandMethod02.jpg CenterstandMethod03.jpg

    Some centerstand designs appear to have better geometries, reducing the effort.
    So, the question is: How much to lift?
     
  19. TwoManyXS1Bs

    TwoManyXS1Bs BBQ Hunter Top Contributor

    The moment arm and forces involved.

    *Warning* - Math stuff. Bite a bullet or jab an icepick in your leg (works for me).
    (Some approximations and estimations used here to make it easier, so forget the icepick)

    The forces involved are perpendicular to the ground, so don't get distracted by the angularity of the centerstand parts.
    Google "moment arm physics" and "lever arm physics" for more info.

    My particular XS1B appears to have a rather disadvantageous leverage ratio of about 1:2.
    XS1B-Centerstand-01b.jpg

    The bike weighs about 410 lbs. We'll just use 300lbs as the bike's weight on the centerstand pivot.
    With that much weight, and that leverage ratio, it would take 600lbs to just reach the balance point.

    CenterstandLeverRatio01.jpg

    More than 600 lbs would get the thing moving.
    AND, once movement commences, the leverage ratio improves, reducing the effort.
    I'm not willing to gain that much weight.

    CenterstandLeverRatio02.jpg
     
  20. TwoManyXS1Bs

    TwoManyXS1Bs BBQ Hunter Top Contributor

    The centerstand technique is interesting in that it has the rider lift the bike, reducing the bike's weight on the centerstand pivot, while simultaneously adding weight to the centerstand's pedal. The more you lift, the lighter the bike, and more downward pedal force. How much lift to get things started?

    For this exercise, just looking at my XS1B. Other bikes will be different.

    In the initial state, the bike-side torque arm is (2X) * 300lbs, requiring (1X) * 600lbs to balance.
    Suppose the rider weighs 180 lbs, and lifts 50 lbs?
    That reduces the bikes weight to 250lbs, and increases the pedal force to (180 + 50), which is 230 lbs.
    Now, with 250lbs on the (2X) pivot side, and 230lbs on the (1X) pedal side, is that enuff?
    Nope. Gotta lift more.

    Assuming the rider puts his full weight on the centerstand pedal, and the weight of the bike comes off the rear wheel, then all those combined weights will appear at the centerstand's feet/pads. The centerstand's feet now become the fulcrum of a lever, the balance point occurring when the torque arms are equal. Torque arm is the product of the moment arm (length parallel to ground) and force (weight perpendicular to the ground).

    The total weight on the 'fulcrum' will simply be the bike's weight (300lbs) plus the rider's weight (we'll use 180lbs).
    That gives a total weight of 480lbs.
    With a 1:2 leverage ratio, 2/3rds of that weight needs to be on the pedal to balance the remaining 1/3rd on the centerstand's pivot.
    1/3 of 480lbs is 160lbs, 2/3 is 320lbs.
    So, must reduce the bike's weight by (300lbs-160lbs) = 140lbs
    And increase pedal force by lifting that 140lbs, adding to the rider's effective weight on the pedal by (180lbs + 140lbs) = 320lbs.
    Notice that the total weights (160lbs on pivot) + (320lbs on pedal) still equals the original 480lbs.
    Of course, that's just the equilibrium point, takes a little more to get the ball rolling.

    Lift 140lbs? No wonder my arm hurts.
    320lbs on the tiny round-ball-shaped centerstand pedal?
    In tennis shoes? That's like getting shot in the foot with a round-ball musket.
    No wonder my foot complains.

    I don't weigh 180lbs, but how much lift would be needed by riders of various weights?
    The lift value is: 2/3 * (total weight) - RiderWeight.
    Which, for this particular scenario, would be: 200lbs - (1/3 * RiderWeight)
    The more the rider weighs, the less lift required, but the pedal force skyrockets

    Here's a table:
    RiderWt.....Lift.........Total on pedal
    120lbs.....160lbs.....280lbs
    150lbs.....150lbs.....300lbs
    180lbs.....140lbs.....320lbs
    210lbs.....130lbs.....340lbs
    240lbs.....120lbs.....360lbs
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2016

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