Timing with a pamco.

[5twins]

Yes, any timing adjustment you make will effect the setting at both idle and full advance. It's more important that you don't go too advanced. The advance unit is designed to move an exact amount and advance the timing an exact amount (25°). That works fine when everything is new but as wear sets in and the advance unit begins to loosen up, the amount it advances can grow. Yamaha compensated for this to a certain extent by giving the idle timing spec as a range, not a single exact number. It is 13° to 17° BTDC. You may have read the timing specs are 15° BTDC for idle and 40° BTDC for full advance. That works just fine if your advance unit is perfect and only moves exactly 25°. If not, then you can (and must, really) cheat the idle timing a bit more retarded to keep the full advance from going too far.

As you're set now, on the "T" mark, your timing is retarded not advanced. Advanced is when you fire too early, before you reach the "F" mark.

 

[mikeh36]

Thanks 5T. I'll set the timing tomorrow after a warm up ride (if it ever stops raining). I need to figure out some way to strap the bike down so that it doesn't keep trying to walk away while when I bring the revs up. I'd tie it to the bench but I fear it'll just pull the bench across the floor.

 

[TC2000]

remember that with a wasted spark system, the rpm read on a strobe is twice the actual one

 

[retiredgentleman]

Thanks 5T. I'll set the timing tomorrow after a warm up ride (if it ever stops raining). I need to figure out some way to strap the bike down so that it doesn't keep trying to walk away while when I bring the revs up. I'd tie it to the bench but I fear it'll just pull the bench across the floor.

I place a rubber mat under the centre stand legs, and that prevents walking in reverse.

 

[mikeh36]

Thanks for the idea RG. That worked like a charm.

Got the bike out for a warmup run, adjusted the idle timing to bang on the F, had my wife bring the throttle up to 3200 (which she had issues keeping it at a steady RPM), and it's pretty damn close to the where Pete says is the full advance mark in the second post in this thread.

My timing light sucks so I was getting bouncing no matter which wire I connected it to but on the post timing run the bike felt responsive. Now to get the carbs balanced.

 

[kapalowski]

Apologies ahead of time if im posting this to the wrong thread , but it felt most relevant to my issue.

I have a 81 650 special

in 2019 that had the engine rebuilt and the bike seemed to be running good, except for the charging system never charging the battery properly
it got progressively worse until the bike became unridable.

I opted to get the full pamco ignition system from mikes installed
XSCharge™ PMA and Ultimate Electronic Ignition Kit w/E-Advancer - XS650
SKU: 24-2607B

which I can't seem to find on the site anymore.

the kit got installed by a local shop and the bike wouldn't go past 3000 RPM but it drove. but progressively worse and worse until it was unridable again.

I left the bike with the same shop all summer in 2020 and finally was able to take the bike home in October 2020 ... its now a FRANKENBIKE as apparently the Pamco ignition module failed ... and this workaround was done (see pic)

I made it 5 minutes out of the shop lot and the bike died. took it back again and they tweaked a few things and now the bike starts and seems to run fine ... but the cold weather here has prevented me from doing a proper drive, aside from around the block 5-10 times.

IM trying to understand a little more what this frankenfix does, and what failed on the pamco ingnition. Im not bike savvy but mechanical enough to understand (I hope)

from what I understand pamco is now out of business and replacing this defective pamco ignition would not be wise? or even doable?
The shop tried to explain this fix, but just kept telling me to not worry and enjoy the bike!

just looking to get a summary of whats going on here so I dont feel completely in the dark, thank you all for your time and patience!

 

[gggGary]

Speechless!


But, it's me so;
Frankenbike is right!
I thought I've already seen everything that could be done to an XS650 but you just proved me wrong.
I'll give em points for trying. (not too many)
That's your stock TCI ignition pickup bungled onto the cover and a matching magnet drilled into the XScharge rotor. (seen at 1 o:clock)
Only way to time it is changing the rotor position on the crank or somehow slotting the screw holes and turning the cover.
But hey if it works it prolly SHOULD be fine, how they got the the gap tween the magnet and pick ups right is a bit of a mystery.
You are going to want to check that the timing is relatively close.

 

[WideAWAKE]

Wow!

that’s a doozy!

I nominate that for the calendar! I know it’s not a full build but epic nonetheless!

 

[5twins]

And they broke the "ugly" stick on it too, lol. Who works at that shop, a bunch of farm boys? That's a barn yard "fix" if I ever saw one, lol.

 

[Jim]

The real pisser is they coulda' just routed the harness back through the case like it originally was and you'd be none the wiser.
Still trying to figure out what that red thingey is...

 

[gggGary]

So the original TCI black box is back in use with those pick ups. You might want to have a JuJu iggy module in reserve. Thinking I wouldn't head off for the hinterlands til you racked up some miles. If it's only epoxy, glue holding that pickup there it could become an issue. (heat, oil, vibration)
The ignition you got from Mikes was likely the knock off part with reliability issues not an original pamco that have been pretty bulletproof on bikes with batteries. It's still possible to have a back up ignition ready to go, assuming there is now/still a mechanical advance set up in the head/cam, a Tytronic would be an easier/neater solution than what they did?
http://www.tytronic.com/tytronic/products/7797124.html

 

[Jim]

Thinking I wouldn't head off for the hinterlands til you racked up some miles.

Or even around the block. The magnet's just epoxied on... I doubt it'll stay for long. The cover the TCI pickup's epoxied to shows some dirt and most likely oil residue. I doubt it'll last much longer. I give 'em points for ingenuity, but the execution sucks.

 

[kapalowski]

So the original TCI black box is back in use with those pick ups. You might want to have a JuJu iggy module in reserve. Thinking I wouldn't head off for the hinterlands til you racked up some miles. If it's only epoxy, glue holding that pickup there it could become an issue. (heat, oil, vibration)
The ignition you got from Mikes was likely the knock off part with reliability issues not an original pamco that have been pretty bulletproof on bikes with batteries. It's still possible to have a back up ignition ready to go, assuming there is now/still a mechanical advance set up in the head/cam, a Tytronic would be an easier/neater solution than what they did?
http://www.tytronic.com/tytronic/products/7797124.html

Thank you all for the replies! much appreciated!

gggGary - are you saying that the tytronic solution you posted above can replace this monstrosity?

Jim - the red thing as far as I can best tell is a re-purposed brake pad plate that is helping hold the pickups in place

 

[gggGary]

the tytronic solution you posted above can replace this monstrosity?

lets see a pic inside the covers on both ends of the cam, then we might be able to give you a answer.

 

[Jim]

lets see a pic inside the covers on both ends of the cam, then we might be able to give you a answer.

He said it's an 81 so most likely no advance. One could be installed though.

 

[kapalowski]

Thanks again guys ... ill venture out to get more pics tomorrow afternoon .... anything else I should grab pics of to help the diagnosis?!

 

[gggGary]

He said it's an 81 so most likely no advance. One could be installed though.

but it was running with a MikesXS "Pamco" so prolly had an advance rod installed?
"the kit got installed by a local shop and the bike wouldn't go past 3000 RPM but it drove. but progressively worse and worse until it was unridable again." A working mechanical advance, less likely.

 

[Jim]

but it was running with a MikesXS "Pamco" so prolly had an advance rod installed?

I think Mike (and Pete) sold a kit that was just the rod and hardware to mount it solid. An 81 won't have the bronze bushing inside the cam for the rod to rotated inside of. But again, not impossible to overcome.

 

[Jim]

anything else I should grab pics of

Yeah, pics of the mechanic (a loosely used and possibly incorrect term in this case). I need a new pic for my dartboard.

 

[gggGary]

Thanks again guys ... ill venture out to get more pics tomorrow afternoon .... anything else I should grab pics of to help the diagnosis?!

You might want to shoot up the voltage regulator, rectifier. Your description of it slowly dying has me doubting even the new system is charging. There's a sharp group of fellow XS'rs in Ontario some might be close enough to help with a bit of troubleshooting.
I will strongly suggest a voltmeter where you can see it while riding will be a big advantage.