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Why No Mention of Sump Filter in Owner's Manual?

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by ramblin5, Sep 10, 2019.

  1. TwoManyXS1Bs

    TwoManyXS1Bs BBQ Hunter Top Contributor

    That OR652 filter claims to filter down to 30 microns.
    OR652_Filter.jpg

    That's getting into "paper filter" territory.

    Much better than the stock filters at 150 and 350 microns.
    XS650-NewOldSumpFilters2.jpg
     
    MaxPete, GLJ, gggGary and 1 other person like this.
  2. cafetools

    cafetools XS650 Addict

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    Now info on the Heiden filter please... How much was it shipped to the USA?
     
    gggGary likes this.
  3. Raymondo

    Raymondo XS650 owner, fettler, setting out on a journey Top Contributor

    This is the Smedspeed modified sump fitted to mine - take a look at http://www.xs650.com/threads/hello-from-new-member.55057/

    PICT1805.JPG

    Has the advantage of external screw-on filter. I couldn't tell you if Smedspeed ships to USA but you could always ask. They can be found at http://www.smedspeed.co.uk/

    The only downside I found so far is that because the filter replaces the drain plug, you can't drain the oil before unscrewing the filter. Gets a bit messy.
     
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  4. Superjet

    Superjet XS650 Junkie Top Contributor XS650.com Supporter

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  5. 59Tebo

    59Tebo 59Tebo Top Contributor

    Yeah Beags, I think I'm gonna wanna get in line for one also. Especially if you're at a similar price-point as the Heiden fllter (plus the shipping from the UK. ...that can't be cheap). Made here? Bomb-proof? Replacement parts availability? :umm: It's a no-brainer. :smoke: [ : > )
     
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  6. MaxPete

    MaxPete Life with Lucille...I suggest, she decides. Top Contributor XS650.com Supporter

    Raymond: as I’m sure you are aware, the XS650 actually has two drain plugs:
    - the one in the sump plate to which you refer;
    - an identical plug on the underside of the transmission case.

    Frankly, I have always opened the “sump” drain first and most of the oil comes out there but I wonder how much you would get if you opened the tranny drain first....

    ...anybody know?

    Pete
     
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  7. Raymondo

    Raymondo XS650 owner, fettler, setting out on a journey Top Contributor

    Pete, same thought exactly. Getting under the bike and taking a look when I first had the bike, I was like Why is there a crankcase drain and a gearbox drain when this is a unit engine? Is this arrangement an historical artefact?

    Will be interested to see if anybody knows whether all or most of the oil will come out if the rear of the two plugs is pulled. If no answer, I'll do the experiment.
     
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  8. Beags64

    Beags64 XS650 Addict Top Contributor

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    Therein lies my main concern, is it too tight or restrictive? Are we getting to the point of starving the pump?
     
  9. cafetools

    cafetools XS650 Addict

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    5twins, how does this look for my first patch job? FYI I put a layer of jb weld on the mesh before I put the copper on as well.... Should I have connected the jb weld, as in covering the copper completely? I just don't want it to flake off in my motor.
     

    Attached Files:

  10. Jim

    Jim I have a plan. It's something to deviate from. Top Contributor XS650.com Supporter

    Epoxy will usually start to separate and degrade along the edges... or seams. By not covering the copper, you've created twice as many epoxy edges. Covering the copper would have been better.
     
  11. 5twins

    5twins XS650 Guru Top Contributor

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    That looks fine. I've never had any of the JB Weld come off or break away. As long as the screen is still there, you really don't need to add sheet metal over it, just cover all the screen with the stuff. The screen makes a very good backing for the JB Weld. I only add a sheet metal patch if the screen is completely gone, as you do find sometimes in spots .....

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I have started using a bolt-on sheet metal guard now. I wanted it to be removable so I could inspect the screening under it from time to time. It doesn't block oil flow 100% but does cut it way down. I'm hoping that's enough to preserve the screen underneath .....

    [​IMG]
     
  12. TwoManyXS1Bs

    TwoManyXS1Bs BBQ Hunter Top Contributor

    I don't think so, Beags64.
    Guesstimating here, the OR652 filter looks to be at least 3 times the surface area of the side filter. I'm running a paper filter sleeve over my side filter, and a high-volume oil pump. More constrictive, more oil flow. Yes, there's a pressure drop across it. Excruciating exhaustive postings start here:

    Posts #56 to #85.
    http://www.xs650.com/threads/hp-oil-pump-from-mikes.40991/page-3#post-478041

    If you assume that the oil pump could pull at least 10psi vacuum, and a 10psi pressure differential would be the start of pump cavitation (starvation), then I'm guesstimating that a cold (60°F) oil flow of almost 3gpm (11lpm) would get you that 10psi pressure drop across that OR652 filter. That's about 8,000rpm on the stock pump, 5,500rpm on the hi-vol pump.

    Flow values here, post #40.
    http://www.xs650.com/threads/xs650-top-end-oil-pressure-gauge.45317/page-2#post-531441

    Once the oil warms to 80-85°F, you're well into the safe zone...
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2019
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  13. Beags64

    Beags64 XS650 Addict Top Contributor

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    Well that's certainly reassuring to hear. Figured if anyone would have the answer, and the data, to quell my fears it would be you my good sir. Kept thinking that a lot of people are running spin-on filters that are quite tight and not having issues but I was still a bit apprehensive.
    Burnin' up my motor is one thing. Sending out something that could possibly damage someone else's stuff, well that just ain't right! Gotta be able to sleep at night!
    Thanks for the info. Looks like it's time to forge ahead.
     
    gggGary likes this.
  14. gggGary

    gggGary Stop that! Top Contributor XS650.com Supporter

    Going to throw my :twocents: (and maybe a monkey wrench) in here. I fugure there's a reason the top of the stock filters is solid. perhaps a cover on the top? No data (2many does that!) But wonder if a section exposed to "air" (the top) will suck air which is easy, compared to sucking oil as found lower down?? We've all watched a drain in a container of water create a dip in the fluid surface then start pulling air in.
    an xs1filtera.jpg early screen housing just for grins. Methinks this illustrates that a really small filter area can be a problem.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019
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  15. Beags64

    Beags64 XS650 Addict Top Contributor

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    Valid point for sure Gary. Have read where others have expressed concern over crank windage issues with this basic design. Wouldn't be too hard to add some sort of shield over the top. Sort of a windage tray if you would, similar to how the oil pan in other motors are set-up. Hmmm...
     
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  16. Beags64

    Beags64 XS650 Addict Top Contributor

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    Couple rough & dirty measurements puts the top of the filter 18-20mm below the bottom of the crank flywheels. Trying to 'cypher oil level in relationship to flywheels (using Hans Pohl's cut-away pics) looks like bottom of flywheels should be just about even with oil level. Perhaps a small scavenger/robber shield on the top - rear, given crank rotation, could keep the filter sufficiently submerged in oil? Now Gary's got me frettin' over this!:doh:
     
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  17. 59Tebo

    59Tebo 59Tebo Top Contributor

    As a wise friend of mine once said: "...nothing was ever made that couldn't be modified..."
    Experimentation leads to breakthroughs and quantum improvements. :wink2:
     
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  18. 5twins

    5twins XS650 Guru Top Contributor

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    The Heiden filter doesn't have a top cover. They've been selling them a few years now at least and I've never heard about any problems with them.
     
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  19. Jim

    Jim I have a plan. It's something to deviate from. Top Contributor XS650.com Supporter

    Yeah... that was my first thought too.
     
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  20. Beags64

    Beags64 XS650 Addict Top Contributor

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    Yet another good thing about this place, multiple points of view on any given subject. Always better to have to have others who may see something you may not have picked up on. Case in point Gary bringing up the possibility of suckin' a hole above the filter. With my set-up as is it's about 6mm higher & pulling from all the way around, not just the sides. There is enough to drop it another 2mm or so but now I'm wondering could it still be a potential problem. Need to figure out exactly how much oil will actually be above the filter.
     

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