Wiring again

[nb1914]

wow i must admit i bought the reg/rec purely on the basis it was a 12v system and the wire colours matched the simplified wiring diagram. but if we say that with some certainty that the green from the regulator circuit is an earth/ground of some sort then looking at your photo which is exactly what i have then it would connect to the upper wire which you show as grounded .

 

[5twins]

Well, you're learning a little here but you still don't seem to understand completely how these stock 650 charging systems work. If the green wire on your regulator is supplying a regulated ground, just hooking it to the grounded brush isn't going to make it work. Turning the ground on and off to a brush that is already permanently grounded won't do shit. You need a different type regulator, one that regulates 12V power on the green wire. That's why I asked if you could I.D. the combined reg/rec you had, so maybe we could find some mounting instructions that had the wire colors labeled and maybe a spec sheet telling what type of regulator was in it. Since you bought the thing, you should have that info. Do you?

Voltage regulators for vehicle charging systems come in two basic types. They are categorized as being an "A" circuit type or a "B" circuit type. On the "A" circuit type, switched power is sent to one brush from the harness while the voltage regulator controls the charging output by varying the ground to the other brush. The later style 650 charging system uses this type. On the "B" circuit type, the regulator controls the power to one brush while the other is permanently grounded. The early 650 charging system (like yours) uses this type.

 

[peanut]

the PO says that he has a 1980 bike quote ("ah , I'm sure its an 1980 stator well thats the bike first registration.)
which should have a combined regulator and rectifier which controls the charging system by grounding the rotor via the green wire.

He has already stated that he has brown and a green Stator wires which is the standard wiring for the later bike ie 1980 onwards.
I don't understand why you are confusing the issue by talking about the charging systems for the early bikes, pre 1980 which are grounded permanently at the stator brush block and use black and green wires with seperate rectifier and regulator.?

According to this wiring diagram the 12v+ feed to the Rotor is fed from the ignition switch with a brown wire and is switched live with the ignition switch on 1980 -84 bikes, not via a red wire from the fuse block.?

As I suggested given that the Po has obviously mucked about with the wiring I think the sensible thing to do is to remove the cover and stator and physically check which wires connect to where . A picture would sure prove useful

 

[650Skull]

nb1914. Untill the confusion on the ignition system is sorted out your going to get conflicting and argumentative information from posters.

I went back over some of your earlier threads and you state you have 2 coils and a points ignition.

The information below was written before i did some research on your earlier threads.


Although you state the bike is registered in 1980, information from various members in Europe and the UK have found the registration date is not necessarily the actual model, the bike may be registered in 1980 but it could be a 79 model.

A lot of US imports all across the world now. US models changed, from Points ignition, to a factory Electronic Ignition system, (TCI), in 1980 till the end of production.

It is important to clarify your model and if it is an import or a Genuine Euro model, i think the Euro models didn't have the Factory TCI.

Peanut..............You may be confusing things more than helping.

 

[5twins]

Yes peanut, you're the one mucking things up here. The original poster says he has the early type stator in post #10, reaffirms it in post #21. He also mentions originally having a separate reg and rec which would also indicate the early stator and charging system. That's why I'm giving him info for the early system. You're the guy confusing him, giving him info for the later system. And on top of that, some of your info is wrong, lol. The brown switched power wire on the later system doesn't go to the outer brush, it goes to the inner brush. The green wire from the regulator goes to the outer brush.

 

[peanut]

Yes peanut, you're the one mucking things up here. The original poster says he has the early type stator in post #10, reaffirms it in post #21.

well that certainly wasn't my intention

He also says that he has a 1980 model with a brown and green stator wire which is the later charging system not early.

You gave him details about both he early and the late charging system which is where I thought you were potentially making things more confusing .

I recommended that the poster open up his case and remove the stator and physically check what he has wired to what .


That is surely the most important step at the moment .

Until we establish what is fitted to the bike we are all speculating . It seems pretty clear to me that the wiring has been mucked about with and components replaced and nothing can be taken for granted.

I stand corrected regarding the inner and outer stator brush polarity. I wasn't aware that it was the reverse of the earlier models thank you for drawing my attention to it. I have ammended my previous post so that it doesn't cause any confusion to future viewers......however until we know if the rotor ground wire is grounded at the stator or not,... it is all rather academic.

 

[nb1914]

I'm probably confusing you all, yes the bike has 2 coils and was fitted with points. i have installed a newtronics ignition system and the bike runs good with a simple wiring harness excluding the charger system ( for testing i just made sure the batt was fully charged ) . it also had separate rectifier regulator modules. the new reg/rec i have has very little info other than its supposed to be a direct replacement as per below:- I will dedicate sometime later to doing some multimeter work

Direct replacement to your original unit
Plug-and-play, direct fit, easy installation
Higher grade of electronic components
Improved heat sink and charging capabilities
Quality exceeds the OEM equipment
heavy duty regulator/rectifier replaces OEM part
100% Brand New
Easy to install, No Installation Instruction
Fitment:
Yamaha XJ550 1981-1983
Yamaha YX600 1986-1988
Yamaha XJ650 Turbo 1980-1985
Yamaha XS650 1978-1983
Yamaha XJ900 F 1983-1994
Yamaha XJ700 1985-1986
Yamaha XJ600 1984-1992
Yamaha XS400 (D.o.h.c) 1982-1985
Yamaha FZ600 1987-1989
Yamaha XJ750 1981-1984
Yamaha FJ600 1984-1985

 

[650Skull]

Your problem could be the 78-83 reg/rect is for the factory Electronic ignition system, (TCI), Sellers post anything, meaning they could be thinking any Special uses these as a replacement for their system when in fact the 78SE/79SF had points with a separate Regulator and Rectifier, (as yours has). The 80-83 Specials require the solid state combined Reg/Rect. .................So there is no way a combined Reg/Rect can be used on both a points ignition model and TCI ignition model without some modification to the brushes. The sellers of that product are selling a part and lumping different models into it without knowing what they are doing.

There is a Solid state combined Reg/Rect that can be bought for a points model ignition.

 

[peanut]

I'm probably confusing you all,

not at all ...
This is probably one of the most common problem areas on the XS650 due to the change in grounding method for pre and post 1979 models as the seperate rectifier and regulator changed to a combined one at this time and the associated rotor wiring changed colour and grounding connections .
Add to that many old parts get substituted with the wrong part and other bikes get modified or upgraded to permanent magnet alternators (PMA) as well ,its no wonder many owners get confused .

As skull650 says sellers often have no idea about our XS650 model changes and you'll frequently see 1979-1984 parts misadvertised as XS650 'SE' which they mistakenly think are all the same model.
if you have a look at the head tube you'll see the year of manufacture stamped into the tube although the plastic label will probably be missing now . I wouldn't be surprised to hear that it is 1979

I have to say though if you could supply an image of the rect/reg and the stator and wiring it would save hours of typing and speculation.

 

[5twins]

Yes, it appears you have the wrong type regulator, one that regulates ground. But all is not lost. You can make it work by doing what's called the nylon screw mod. Basically what this does is change your brush wiring so it is like the later models. Details are here .....

http://www.xs650.com/threads/nylon-screws.43874/

 

[nb1914]

Thanks 5twins i will take a look at that, i also have a plan B as i kept the original rectifier and regulator modules. I also wielded the multimeter and can see that on the bottom brush wire that this is connected to one of the shorter wires coming out the stator loom, the top brush is connected to ground i.e. i see continuity between it and anywhere on the chassis ground. The other shorter wire also from the stator loom is also connected to chassis ground. as you can see from below a PO has obviously let a spanner while timing the bike spin around and hit the brush assembly, not sure if its knackered it yet. Also you can some odd wiring attached to the rectifier but if i take it back to standard do the colours make sense i.e. as the wires leave the regulator and rectifier, would this be easier to simply re-employ the old reg and rec.

 

[5twins]

If your pics are showing what you are calling "original" parts, they are not the original reg and rec that came on the bike. They've been changed to I don't know what, and I wouldn't have a clue how to wire them. Here's what an original rectifier looked like .....

And here's an original regulator .....

I think you better pull your brushes out and examine them too. They're supposed to have wires on their mounts (see pic in post 20) and I don't see any on yours. Your brushes may not be attached electrically to the circuit, just held in place by the mounts.

 

[nb1914]

damn i thought they were original, there are wires coming from the brushes as in post 20 if I'm looking at the right thing. so i have some choices i.e. buy a new solid state reg/rec specific to xs650 models with points systems and grounded stator. Or perform the nylon screw mod and use what i have, i like the idea of the nylon mod but as in other posts the screws seem hard to come by. in my mind though if i get some m4 x30 nylon bolts i can easily cut them to 12mm and if the pitch isn't 0.7mm i would imagine they would easily cut into the metal threads on the brushes. if i do this mod where does the reg green wire go inner or outer brush and therefore the reg brown wire to the other, i did read the post on the conversion but lost plot a bit.

 

[5twins]

I'm not talking about the regular wires that connect to the screw terminals of the brushes. The brushes themselves are connected to their mounting brackets with short lengths of bare wire .....

You usually see some of that bare wire on top of the bracket when they're mounted. Look at that pic in post 20 again. I don't see any of that bare wire on your brush mounts.

If you do the nylon screw mod, the green wire from your combined reg/rec will run to the outer brush. Your regulator will now be turning the ground on and off to that brush to control the charging output. No other wires from the regulator will run to the stator or brushes. The brown from the regulator will connect to switched power in your main harness. After installing the nylon screws, the black wire on the inner brush must also be connected to switched power from the main harness.

 

[nb1914]

ah i see what you mean, i think i might be ordering new brushes holder from heiden. thanks all i think once i get the magic nylon bolts ( on their way via flebay )i will have the charging system sorted …….fingers crossed.

 

[5twins]

If you're ordering parts, you might as well get the brush mount guard as well. It's missing on yours .....

http://www.mikesxs.net/parts/yamaha-xs650-brush-holder-guard-with-mount-screws