TCI Replacement 2020 It Works

The phenolic is so retro cool.
.... and functional too. :sneaky:
Test fit on the plate shows I need to trim the phenolic some for plate adjustment.... and.... the top hole needs to be a slot if I hope to have any chance of adjusting timing.... or perhaps I already knew that and jus' forgot.... :doh:
Case y'all been wondering why no fire yet, one of the carbs went south for the winter and never returned. :rolleyes:
Got a BS-34 body from @RustiePyles ... thanks buddy.... and parts are on the way from Partzilla, so.... stand by.


PXL_20210429_204859683.jpg
 
I moved this here from another thread because this is the better spot for it, Thanks Jan P

My View Respectfully I don't do this to complain or so Input was asked for and input is given
I don't seek to upset anyone. .. Input is the seed for development
If I understand it right
We have a system A XS650
We have a system B the Gonzo

A has components A(1,2,3.. .n ) Alternator / Wiring / Charging / Ignition and so on
B has the same B(1,2,3... n) Alternator / Wiring / Charging / Ignition

The B system in present days has been tested in a shop some where ,,and mostly there are protective measurements done
against the problems arising in that system B shielding programming decoupling and so on

A -- System has been tested in a shop in Japan in the 70 ies
What happens here as I understand it is that B(4) is taken out off its design situation
B and are moved into the System A . A(4 ) IS replaced with B(4) with 40 years design differences if not 50
which can be entirely different in terms of fex electrical power
Brushes damping and so

"]Richride's mid range issues appear to stem from charging system issues rather than any issue with the Gonzo or electrical noise.

If the alternator ( I am not claiming is so but if ) are sparking like a weld at the brushes fex ..It is not necessarily so that the
Micro controller in the Gonzo Box ever was designed never tested to cope with that.

You gentlemen are experienced enough to know these problems
You don't take it for granted that a carburetor from a System C can be installed .
And / Or don't install it without Re jetting Some tweaking
So if you are honest most of you realize that there are perhaps problems involved in doing what you are
doing.
And fine ...nothing strange or Disqualifying .. These issues happens in Many development Projects
If not all .. Some tweaking and adjustments and the solution is ready Plug and Play
I am no expert but i Know a little and know that micro controllers are sensitive.

The facts are
Two different systems
A and B Both work
Taking ignition box from B and hook up on A --> There are at least 2 bikes I have seen --> Having problems

I have not read it or analyzed ... But There is where I am at .. If the explanation is clear and known
fex Worn brushes or whatnot then it is no problem I got it wrong with poor reading.

If it is right so far then a development engineer would notice those situations and trying to figure out what is going on.
I have not seen any figures on the number of working installations
I know of Jim but not much more and seen 2 different with Problems
Rich has tested rather extensive strategies .And appears to be experienced, Still with problems
Input was asked for and input was given.
 
Jan_P said:
My View Respectfully I don't do this to complain or so Input was asked for and input is given
I don't seek to upset anyone. .. Input is the seed for development.

I couldn't agree more. That's why this thread is 58 pages long and growing.
 
The stock TCI, the original Pamco, Boyer etc all do not like low or high voltage inputs. So many reports of fried Pamcos that Pete in his instructions and in his recommendations is to use a separate battery when testing to prevent a out of control generator from destroying the igniter box.

Probably a recommendation for the Gonzo as well.

It was pretty easy to design the power input filtering inside the Gonzo box because of the very low power requirements.
For me ,one of the key advantages of the Gonzo is that the delicate parts of the system are mounted away from the heat and vibration of the engine rather than being mounted on the side of the cylinder head with the spark plug just below it.

The inputs to the Gonzo are well away from the spark plugs instead of 1 inch (25mm) from the spark plugs and 5-6 inches (125-150 mm) from the coils and wiring where the cylinder head mounted ignitions are located reducing noise levels on the Gonzo inputs.



As far as problem children yes there have been a couple.
But I know of quit a few out blasting down the road.

The first report was of erratic and too far advanced : known issue of reversed pickup leads. Never heard back. I will try to follow up.

The second one is on going and waiting to hear back about progress.

I'm in a effort to do a census of Gonzo installs.


Jan_p

I value your input. Keep it up. :bs:
 
I've been running a gonzo iggie for 5k miles or more. Using the advanced sensor of the OG TCI, its been running great! It came along at a good time too. The SG had a PAMCO with a E advance. I found out the E advance was advancing too much! Retarding was tried but, to bring the advanced setting in properly put rhe retarded setting to far back. Any way, I put a Gonzo system in and its been good ever since. Im using a monster coil too.
 
Gonzo turns One !

What is the Gonzo.

The Gonzo replaces the points and condensers . That simple
The Gonzo box mimics the switching that the points do to the ground side of the coil . It uses a magnet and pickup instead of points and a timing cam.

The Gonzo advantage.

No contact timing . The only part attached to the hot and vibrating 650 is the magnet and pickup coil both being standard stuff from other bikes used for the same purpose .
Can “Plug and Play” somewhat on a TCI engine.
Open source. It keeps morphing allowing it to be installed on a wider variety of machines.

The origins of the Gonzo Box

4 years ago I bought a TCI motor. As I drove the 60 miles back home with it I tried to figure out how I was going to make sparks with it.

Google broke the bad news to me.

A) there is no such thing as NOS TCI boxes
B) the used boxes were rough.
C) the used boxes were flipping expensive.
D) ditto with the stock TCI pickup

To make matters even worse at that time there were no “good schematics” to even consider going stock TCI box. To this day I have never seen one in real life.


I started with what I had and somewhat understood Yamaha OEM XJ700 TCI box hooked up to the TCI pickup on the 650 stator. Had Old Brown starting and running with it. The only problem was no advance.

Wallowed through several ebay inighter boxes hoping to find one that would work. Built a pickup simulator to test with.

The so called GN250 igniter box turned up as a prospect. When I found that it was actually and repeatably advancing I posted about it here a year ago.


The Gonzo is not mine.

The Gonzo project is open source just like open source software.

Lot’s of people here @ XS650.com have made this a reality through thought, courage ,expenses , endless photos ,shop time, more photos and most importantly the stuck that sucker in there and let's see have far it gets it down the road guys . Y'all rock!

The recent record I just found out is posted just before this, 5000 miles driven where car and tire manufactures take their new products to die .

Just like open source software lots of eyes catch the bugs and suggest the improvements and stretch the envelope of what is possible.

Cheers to everyone involved here.
Jack

The Gonzo project lurks here. http://www.xs650.com/threads/tci-replacement-2020-it-works.57388/
 
I've been running a gonzo iggie for 5k miles or more. Using the advanced sensor of the OG TCI, its been running great! It came along at a good time too. The SG had a PAMCO with a E advance. I found out the E advance was advancing too much! Retarding was tried but, to bring the advanced setting in properly put rhe retarded setting to far back. Any way, I put a Gonzo system in and its been good ever since. Im using a monster coil too.
Rudy, can you share with us any more info? Did you have to change the timing any when you installed the GN box? Have you noticed any change in performance.... power... milage... anything?
 
And to celebrate Gonzo’s birthday @Jim has given us a beautiful birthday gift.

Major Achievements in this one photo.

#1 With some testing looks like any XS650 will be able to be equipped with a ignition system very similar to what Yamaha used on the later 650’s
#2 I see the basis for a great replacement TCI pickup if the original TCI pickups are fried.
#3 Will give some comparative results for 1969 advance setting vs post century ignition system design.
#4 Really cool looking and so 50’s retro at the same time.
#5 A lot of 2 stroke Yamahas and some twin Hondas could benefit from this.

#6 I’m sure some stuff we don’t know yet.



http://www.xs650.com/attachments/pxl_20210501_010716229-jpg.190403/
 
With a little luck, I'll have a 74 DT250 running the GN box by the end of the year.

Ditto 1975 Kawasaki F11 250.
Engine mount tabs coming from @Travis this week. A little grinding and fitting and a little welding and the work on getting the 250 run start. Looking for crank seals. have base and head gaskets. Trying to get past the Chinese puzzle of JIS screws.
 
With a little luck, I'll have a 74 DT250 running the GN box by the end of the year.
Be very interested in this. Have a 73 DT and setting points on it is a fun exercise in near futility, especially with the chinese wanna-be points.
 
Just in from starting a rebuilt stock 650 motor using a Gonzo system. Started and ran well, advanced perfectly. This motor is a repower for our sidecar which is going to be sold (keeping the race motor as spare for new bike). Next Sunday is the have a go day where members of the public buy tickets and get to have a go at swinging.
The upshot is the bikes do a lot of laps and any weaknesses in the system will be exposed.
I will report back.
 
Functional Diagram of the Gonzo Igniter Box
upload_2021-5-1_19-27-34.png


The stock TCI or Jim’s conversion signals the lady in the Gonzo to tell the computer that the magnet went by .

The computer thinks about the the last time the magnet went by and in true Alice's Restaurant fashion says wait for it it while come backs around, and thinks it might need to do things earlier depending on how long it takes that magnet to make the circle.

At the right time the computer tells the lady to flip the breaker points replacement switch.

This process repeats at up to 140 times per second .




The Wiring colors are stock for the early TCI bikes (Somewhat)

The Black wire goes to the primary ground.

The Red/White wire goes to the Kill Switch.
It powers the coil and the computer in the Gonzo Box

The Orange wire goes to the other terminal of the coil.
It connects to the virtual points in the Gonzo. The virtual points ground and unground the coil in the same fashion the real points did.

The stock TCI pick in 80 had Orange and Grey wire to the pickup mounted on the stator.

For harnesses made from scratch I use

Black Black
Red Red/White
Yellow Orange

Pickups
Blue
Green
 
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