Can Someone Explain Ignition System on 1982 XS650 Special?

[fenbrancis]

Congratulations, with some experts helping out you did a great job.....

tim

Yeah I have seen both of these names on this forum alot, feel quite honored they are lending me a helping hand!

 

[Jim]

Alright I tried a second time with brand new plugs. Spark to the plugs on both sides.

It was kind of hit and miss, the plug didnt spark everytime i touched the orange a ground but it started to spark. If I have torn this bike apart to find out I just had two fouled plugs... well I might just cry

One of the down sides to a dual (floating) coil is it needs to fire both plugs to complete the circuit. If one plug goes bad, in many cases, neither plug will fire.

 

[Jan_P]

Is it sparking constantly predictably and runs OK .. on both sides ..and don't go to far from home on the test ride.With fuses
in the pocket.
If it is an intermittent fault it can Come and Go. Typically when getting hot.
The long walk Home the rainy dark night ---Routine
The pushing of the Motorcycle at the roadside in the Scorching Sun " --Routine

 

[Jim]

Diggin' a little deeper... The TCI needs higher resistance in the secondary. You need either resistor caps or resistor plugs... but not both. You know which setup you have? If not, give us some pics of the caps and plug part #.

 

[Jim]

After doing some reading it looks like I can use the 1980 tci box as long as I remove the side stand switch wire and remove the switch and relay. I have a 1980 box, worth a try?

I missed this earlier... yes, all boxes will interchange. It looks awkward, but you can plug the 6 pin into a 8 pin and vise versa. Once you get the bike sorted, it'd be a good idea to verify both boxes are good and keep one as a spare. They're gettin' hard to come by.

 

[fenbrancis]

Diggin' a little deeper... The TCI needs higher resistance in the secondary. You need either resistor caps or resistor plugs... but not both. You know which setup you have? If not, give us some pics of the caps and plug part #.

Alright, so I gave it a kick, still no spark with fresh plugs. I put the old plugs back on and tried the tap test again still no spark (must have failed)

Plugs i am using Autolite AP63 (pulled the removeable terminal nut off so the plug would fit in the cap)
Plug caps are just the stock cap (see photo)

 

[Jan_P]

Assuming those plugs is OK
Assuming there is sufficient power on the upside on the Coil and Ignition Box

I would draw 2 separate wires from ground side
1 from the coil ground and
1 from the Ignition Box ground
Both all the way to the minus on the battery ..This to ensure ground and then listen to the Brum Brum
Brum Brum Brum Brum Brum Brum
( sticking out my neck here )

I dont have the wiring schematic and assume others can chime in or stop this if there is some reason
this can be dangerous I have done it on Boyer Bransden setups Do it carefully no sparking and ignition off during connection.work

 

[fenbrancis]

Assuming those plugs is OK
Assuming there is sufficient power on the upside on the Coil and Ignition Box

I would draw 2 separate wires from ground side
1 from the coil ground and
1 from the Ignition Box ground
Both all the way to the minus on the battery ..This to ensure ground and then listen to the Brum Brum
Brum Brum Brum Brum Brum Brum
( sticking out my neck here )

I dont have the wiring schematic and assume others can chime in or stop this if there is some reason
this can be dangerous I have done it on Boyer Bransden setups Do it carefully no sparking and ignition off during connection.work

I checked voltage into the coil an into the box, both were well above 12v.

So hook ground for the coil (not the orange wire/trigger) to the neg on battery, and hook the ground for the tci to the neg on the battery and flip the ignition on or keep it off?

 

[5twins]

I'm pretty sure the Autolite AP63 is a resistor plug, and I know the original spark plug caps are the resistor type, so you probably shouldn't be running the two together. While the increased resistance may weaken the spark some, I don't think it would stop it completely. But still, it's a good idea to replace the original plug caps. They can and do go bad. I also see you're missing the rubber caps for them that seal them onto the plug wire and plug, keeping water out. If you plan on using resistor plugs, I suggest changing your plug caps to non-resistor type. NGK makes some nice ones, the LZFH .....

 

[Jan_P]

I checked voltage into the coil an into the box, both were well above 12v.

So hook ground for the coil (not the orange wire/trigger) to the neg on battery, and hook the ground for the tci to the neg on the battery and flip the ignition on or keep it off?

I notice here that Mr 5 t have spotted a plug issue. do that first..

I don't have the wiring .schematics but the Coil and TCI has a ground connection ...
that is having a connection to the minus on the Battery via frame and so
It can be possible to measure which one wire .it is ..closer to the items ...Usually they are black ground

With the extra wire that ground connection is secured

Ignition off ..Doing this extra wiring

Then switch ignition on and look for better sparking + try to start

Wait a few minutes or so ---so other can chime in or give more exact spec on bike I can search for a wiring on line
But the gentlemen here probably knows this immediately .

Dont touch the trigger Wires

look at it like a garden hose that someone is standing on restricting the flow ( speaking DC here )
moving that restrictions the flow can success. Or as in the 2 extra wires bypass that restriction

If uncertan please ask again English is not my first language

 

[Jim]

I checked voltage into the coil an into the box, both were well above 12v.

So hook ground for the coil (not the orange wire/trigger) to the neg on battery, and hook the ground for the tci to the neg on the battery and flip the ignition on or keep it off?

Like I said before, that's a floating coil. Neither the primary or the secondary should go to ground. If either does, it's not gonna work.

 

[fenbrancis]

Like I said before, that's a floating coil. Neither the primary or the secondary should go to ground. If either does, it's not gonna work.

Sorry for the confusion, what exacty do you all mean when you say the "1 from the coil ground"

The coil has the orange trigger wire, the r/w wire. where the coil is bolted to the frame there is a frame ground but its not attached to the coil.

 

[fenbrancis]

I'm pretty sure the Autolite AP63 is a resistor plug, and I know the original spark plug caps are the resistor type, so you probably shouldn't be running the two together. While the increased resistance may weaken the spark some, I don't think it would stop it completely. But still, it's a good idea to replace the original plug caps. They can and do go bad. I also see you're missing the rubber caps for them that seal them onto the plug wire and plug, keeping water out. If you plan on using resistor plugs, I suggest changing your plug caps to non-resistor type. NGK makes some nice ones, the LZFH .....

View attachment 214663

I’ll take a look at these caps. For the time being I went back to the stock bp7es plug I had which was working fine. That won’t spark when trying to start it or when I do @jims tap test

 

[Jan_P]

Like I said before, that's a floating coil. Neither the primary or the secondary should go to ground. If either does, it's not gonna work.

I seems as I was wrong that is progress ..But if remember right the magnetic field collapses
in the coil ..perhaps then via the TCI

I shall see if I can find a Wiring Schematic

 

[fenbrancis]

I seems as I was wrong that is progress ..But if remember right the magnetic field collapses
in the coil ..perhaps then via the TCI

I shall see if I can find a Wiring Schematic

This is what I could find

 

[Jim]

Sorry for the confusion, what exacty do you all mean when you say the "1 from the coil ground"

The coil has the orange trigger wire, the r/w wire. where the coil is bolted to the frame there is a frame ground but its not attached to the coil.

A floating coil doesn't go to ground. The plugs do, the TCI box does.... the coil, never.

 

[fenbrancis]

A floating coil doesn't go to ground. The plug do, the TCI box does.... the coil, never.



View attachment 214666

Ah ha I see what you mean now. Sorry for using the wrong terminology.

Ill try some non resistor caps and see if they make a difference with new plugs. Still unsure why the original bp7es ones I threw back in (that were working when I took them out and put in the AP63 set that dont work) stopped working.

As mentioned, I am picking up a 1980 tci box next week and have a gonzo coming in. Not exactly sure what else to try. As mentioned after getting a decent voltage meter and a completely fresh charged battery, the voltage into the coil read well over 12v and the voltage into the tci read well over 12v

 

[Jan_P]

Yes Yes My bad
Sorry about that I was wrong No wire to ground from the Coil
But from TCI Thank you Jim..

Please check if the electronic Igniter looks like that

3 rd from left or 2 d from left
Is there a black wire
If so measure the resistance from the Igniter black wire to the minus on the battery ignition off
That black shall have a good connection. Between igniter and Minus on battery..

But sort out the caps and spark plugs first.

 

[Jim]

Ah ha I see what you mean now. Sorry for using the wrong terminology.

Ill try some non resistor caps and see if they make a difference with new plugs. Still unsure why the original bp7es ones I threw back in (that were working when I took them out and put in the AP63 set that dont work) stopped working.

As mentioned, I am picking up a 1980 tci box next week and have a gonzo coming in. Not exactly sure what else to try. As mentioned after getting a decent voltage meter and a completely fresh charged battery, the voltage into the coil read well over 12v and the voltage into the tci read well over 12v

BP7ES are non-resistor plugs.... to be used with your resistor caps.
AP63's are resistor plugs (4KΩ)... to be used with non-resistor caps.
Using the 63's and resistor caps puts the secondary resistance too high.

 

[fenbrancis]

BP7ES are non-resistor plugs.... to be used with your resistor caps.
AP63's are resistor plugs (4KΩ)... to be used with non-resistor caps.
Using the 63's and resistor caps puts the secondary resistance too high.

In theory, could using resistance caps along with resistance plugs hurt the coil or the tci?