aDotInTime
XS650 Kook
Ok I'll try it out. Will the push start re-establish compression from there on out? I do have a Boyer ignition.
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Help! Trouble with Kickstart/Clutch?
- Thread starter aDotInTime
- Start date
to be fair you have an engine which apparently hasn't run for nearly a year so it will almost certainly need the carbs cleaned unless the PO drained them .
I would just concentrate on using some easy start first.Its highly volatile and will start and run an engine for a few seconds even without any fuel being present. You might get lucky using the kickstart if not try the push or tow start it should fire up or at least backfire or something.
You have a spark and you have compression if it doesn't start with easy start then we need to make certain you do have a spark at the right time
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A similar story. Sobering, and long.
http://www.xs650.com/threads/help-i-broke-it-wont-start-warning-long.40457/
http://www.xs650.com/threads/help-i-broke-it-wont-start-warning-long.40457/
will we want to slash our wrists after reading it 2M ? or will it lift our spirits and make everything seem right with the World .
How warm is it over there today ? we are expecting a record 102 degrees today
Check the timing first............trying to start it first and then checking to see if the spark is set right is the wrong way to do things........Horse before the cart.....Also If the cam chain has jumped a tooth, trying to start it may do a lot of damage if the valve hits a piston...............
Do you have a manual??...........good to have one as a reference to check and learn as advice is received and to read and learn about things mentioned
Makes it hard being a novice trying to learn whats what, when so many are saying different things at one time, and not working on one aspect of a problem or solution to a question, before moving on to another..............
Do you have a manual??...........good to have one as a reference to check and learn as advice is received and to read and learn about things mentioned
Makes it hard being a novice trying to learn whats what, when so many are saying different things at one time, and not working on one aspect of a problem or solution to a question, before moving on to another..............
Hey, peanut!
Oh, that one's definitely a wrist slasher.
How warm is it over there today ? we are expecting a record 102 degrees today
We had a cold (???) front pass thru here a couple of days ago. It's the wee hours of the morning here, just checked my thermometers and forecasts.
OMG! It's 60°F out there, going down to 56°F.
The gods ARE crazy...
Here are some videos on how to set the valves............
http://www.xs650.com/threads/valve-adjustment-video.13083/
Yea that sump filter is shot...........buying a new one wont fix the problem, the filter will blow out because the cold oil hits them as thick oil when it first starts up, it is to thick for the screen and just blows it in............one solution is to start the bike and let it sit and run for a couple of min, (while putting gear on), before riding and then not going past 3000 revs until the engine oil is hot enough that it has thinned out to pass through the filter
Another way to solve the issue is to plate the sump filter............Different ways in the threads
http://www.xs650.com/threads/sump-filter-guard.52818/
http://www.xs650.com/threads/another-oil-sump-repair.7301/
http://www.xs650.com/threads/valve-adjustment-video.13083/
Yea that sump filter is shot...........buying a new one wont fix the problem, the filter will blow out because the cold oil hits them as thick oil when it first starts up, it is to thick for the screen and just blows it in............one solution is to start the bike and let it sit and run for a couple of min, (while putting gear on), before riding and then not going past 3000 revs until the engine oil is hot enough that it has thinned out to pass through the filter
Another way to solve the issue is to plate the sump filter............Different ways in the threads
http://www.xs650.com/threads/sump-filter-guard.52818/
http://www.xs650.com/threads/another-oil-sump-repair.7301/
you are getting polar opposite advice at the moment which is going to leave you all the more confused and is not helpful.
My suggestion is to evaluate what you know to be true first .
The bike started and ran, ( allbeit for a few seconds )
That has to mean that you have 1. compression ..........2. a spark that is close to correct timing and 3. fuel and air mixture that is close enough to start and run.
If you start fiddling and adjusting and replacing components at random without proper testing and diagnosis you are only going to introduce more problems and you won't know which changes could have made things worse.
At the moment there is no reason to believe the previous owner was lying to you but the engine hasn't run in a year . Even a brand new engine freshly built can have starting and running issue initially.
The filter will need replacing as it looks beyond viable repair . The orange silicon is probably the previous owners attempt to repair the fragile mesh which is notorious for breaking due to the oil pressure hitting the delicate mesh. Because the filter is so vital and prone to tearing all owners check their filters regularly
if you are replacing this it would make sense to replace it with an improved aftermarket version if you can afford to.
My suggestion is to evaluate what you know to be true first .
The bike started and ran, ( allbeit for a few seconds )
That has to mean that you have 1. compression ..........2. a spark that is close to correct timing and 3. fuel and air mixture that is close enough to start and run.
If you start fiddling and adjusting and replacing components at random without proper testing and diagnosis you are only going to introduce more problems and you won't know which changes could have made things worse.
At the moment there is no reason to believe the previous owner was lying to you but the engine hasn't run in a year . Even a brand new engine freshly built can have starting and running issue initially.
The filter will need replacing as it looks beyond viable repair . The orange silicon is probably the previous owners attempt to repair the fragile mesh which is notorious for breaking due to the oil pressure hitting the delicate mesh. Because the filter is so vital and prone to tearing all owners check their filters regularly
if you are replacing this it would make sense to replace it with an improved aftermarket version if you can afford to.
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Good luck...........no more advice from me...........i'm not going to try to correct procedures when peanut giving bad advice and contradicting every thing i say, when he is also contradicting himself............it wont end well..........
If you would like some links to information and or online manuals, inbox me......
If you would like some links to information and or online manuals, inbox me......
the po has stated clearly in the very first line of the first post that quote ' not knowing a god damned thing '
so your idea of a helpful suggestion is to suggest that he start adjusting valve settings and cam chain tension without any experience, a manual or possibly even the correct tools.
Have you any idea how many teeth a cam belt would need to skip before a valve could possibly hit the piston ? clearly not
Then you throw your toys out the pram and stomp off in a huff because someone disagrees with you or suggests something different .I expect now you'll pull your usual trick of sending the po private messages rubbishing me and my suggestions etc
Grow up skull
so your idea of a helpful suggestion is to suggest that he start adjusting valve settings and cam chain tension without any experience, a manual or possibly even the correct tools.
Have you any idea how many teeth a cam belt would need to skip before a valve could possibly hit the piston ? clearly not
Then you throw your toys out the pram and stomp off in a huff because someone disagrees with you or suggests something different .I expect now you'll pull your usual trick of sending the po private messages rubbishing me and my suggestions etc
Grow up skull
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Maybe he meant the mikes filter and gasket were still on the shelf. that's a torn (not unusual) stock sump filter, the use of silicone seal to (fix, HA) is a not a good sign about the quality of work done. As others have said checking the cam is (still) correctly timed to the crank, next up...
aDotInTime
XS650 Kook
Hey guys, please don't scrap with each other! You're ALL doing an incredible job of showing up for me and continually taking the time to guide me in the best way you each and individually know possible. I really can't tell you how much I appreciate that. Each of you have individually continued to keep me invested and interested in a problem that appears as daunting as learning to build a space craft to get off a quickly dying planet, when all I know how to do is get two sticks warm rubbing them together. I don't know anything beyond some very basic stuff, so the information I give each of you resonates to you in a unique way based on your own experience. EVERYTHING EVERYONE is saying is EXTREMELY HELPFUL!! I'm trying to learn a new language with a steep learning and application curve and everything everyone advises helps me understand how the language is spoken.
I DO have a new sump filter, and I DID stupidly replace it (I still have the old one and if it's smart, will put it back in before starting so that I don't blow out the new one with cold oil).
I DO have a Clymer's manual.
What I'm getting from everyone at this point is that because of my experience getting the bike to start before it died, is that there could essentially be an issue with timing and valve seating.
My goal for today is to look into valve adjustment and ignition timing. I don't know how much time I'll have between that and work to get anywhere substantial before I can get back to the garage late tonight.
And again
YOU GUYS ARE AMAZING!
I DO have a new sump filter, and I DID stupidly replace it (I still have the old one and if it's smart, will put it back in before starting so that I don't blow out the new one with cold oil).
I DO have a Clymer's manual.
What I'm getting from everyone at this point is that because of my experience getting the bike to start before it died, is that there could essentially be an issue with timing and valve seating.
My goal for today is to look into valve adjustment and ignition timing. I don't know how much time I'll have between that and work to get anywhere substantial before I can get back to the garage late tonight.
And again
YOU GUYS ARE AMAZING!
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You mentioned the bike has a PMA. That might present some issues. The original alternator that the PMA replaced had timing marks for checking the timing and setting valves. These PMA's have no marks. You're supposed to make new marks when you install one but many don't. Pretty stupid, right? But it happens all the time. For valve setting and checking, no marks is not a deal breaker. You just have to place the pistons at TDC. You can accomplish that by watching the top of the piston through the spark plug hole. This isn't hard stuff for many of us but for you, I'm sure it's going to be an adventure, lol.
aDotInTime
XS650 Kook
5twins, whoever installed the PMA did thankfully make a mark on it for TDC. I'll also check with a dowel that the mark and alignment on the timing is correct. ....It's been quite the adventure already. I haven't had my heart broken and my hopes raised in a relationship this much in my life. This bike is the best and worst girlfriend I've ever had.
Yes, do check it. Another issue with some of these PMA's is the flywheel isn't keyed to the shaft like the original rotor was. It's just a wedge fit on the tapered shaft. It's not supposed to move if the mounting nut is kept tight, but you know it can. Then the timing marks will be off.
You are making some good moves, adjusting the valves, checking that the timing is close to begin with. I do think that your compression test had issues, should be done again after valve adjustment and timing check.
To do a compression test air has to enter the cylinders to be compressed. Air will not enter the cylinders unless the throttle is open to let the air in. So, holding the throttle in the wide open position while doing a compression test lets the air into the cylinder so it can be compressed.
Scott
To do a compression test air has to enter the cylinders to be compressed. Air will not enter the cylinders unless the throttle is open to let the air in. So, holding the throttle in the wide open position while doing a compression test lets the air into the cylinder so it can be compressed.
Scott
flyerdon
XS650 Enthusiast
Seeing how the bike did start and run (at least for s few seconds), the timing (both ignition and cam) were pretty close at least upon start-up, However, it is possible that the cam could have changed (slipped a cog or two if it wasn't correctly adjusted as far as it's tension goes. If the wheel turns when the kick starter moves then that doesn't appear to be the issue. I think checking the cam timing is a necessity at this point because it's an unknown right now and that could cause low compression if, in fact the cams are out of time. If the cams are in time, and the pistons are moving up and down, there has to be compression or a bad case of broken rings, bad valves, or a hole somewhere it shouldn't be. We all know the old adage, fuel, compression, and spark= a running engine even if it doesn't run real well.
aDotInTime
XS650 Kook
So here's an update. After a long weekend of a bit here and a bit there, I was able to confirm TDC and adjust the intake and exhaust valves. No dice. Didn't change the fact that there is no building compression.
I put the bike in gear and rolled it. It pushed through just like it would if I had kicked it. There is no resistance in the gear strong enough to inhibit the bike from rolling.
Could this be a clutch/transmission issue?
I put the bike in gear and rolled it. It pushed through just like it would if I had kicked it. There is no resistance in the gear strong enough to inhibit the bike from rolling.
Could this be a clutch/transmission issue?
When you adjusted the valves, did you find any really loose? That could indicate that valve was stuck open, maybe because it's bent.
You've already established that kicking it turns the crank, cam, and moves the pistons up and down. That would seem to indicate the clutch is hooking up and working correctly. Try pulling the clutch lever in and kicking it. It shouldn't turn the crank then, the kicker should just push down with very little resistance. But, maybe with such low compression readings, it will spin the crank just through clutch plate drag.
Unfortunately, everything seems to be pointing at the need for a topend teardown.
You've already established that kicking it turns the crank, cam, and moves the pistons up and down. That would seem to indicate the clutch is hooking up and working correctly. Try pulling the clutch lever in and kicking it. It shouldn't turn the crank then, the kicker should just push down with very little resistance. But, maybe with such low compression readings, it will spin the crank just through clutch plate drag.
Unfortunately, everything seems to be pointing at the need for a topend teardown.
