'82 XS w/ no spark. Now What???

No, not that I know of. I think you'll have to scrounge a couple. They were used on '74-'80 650 swingarms and the TX750 twin swingarm ('73 & '74).

So this is confusing me: When I took off my TCI module it was the 7-wire type. From what I saw, that was used on '82 and later. Maybe I missed something there. But, if the 7-wire TCI module makes the bike an '82, then the swing arm may not be 'stock' to the frame? Possibly a replacement at some point? I'm 99% sure it was a 'Heritage' Special.....and I thought those were only produced in '82 and '83? I'm probably wrong about that too? The bike had the 40-spoke front wheel, though the rear wheel had been changed to the aluminum 18" rim. So, maybe that's a clue that the bike got ass-ended and lost it's original swing arm and 16" wheel? I guess the good news is, I've got the 'parts' bike and I can gank the swing arm off it. I don't think I'm going to go get into that until I hear this engine run!!!

Update: Just bench tested my spark coil. It's NG! Too bad! But, I guess that means there's still hope for the TCI box and pickup.

I think I mentioned that the HT (old terminology for 'High Tension', or the High Voltage leads off the coil or distributor) leads where somewhat loose on the body of the coil. Also, this coil is off the 'parts' bike, as the actual bike I'm working on didn't have one at all. So, 2 bikes, 1 coil, and it's no good. I put new caps on the end of the leads after securing the leads in the coil body with JB weld. I then put a new set of spark plugs in each lead, and affixed both of them to the lamination mounts (where the coil mounts to the frame) of the coil, and powered up the coil with a 12V lead-acid gel-cell alarm battery. This is a similar battery to that which I powered my last 3 XS650s for years......so I know the battery is suitable for the test purpose. Anyway, I got one random spark from the coil upon my first power up and disconnect.....and after that, nuthin"!! Oddly, I could see the seal rings on the spark plug react to the magnetic field within the coil every time I energized it. The little rings would 'joggle' a bit and be pulled toward the coil. As soon as I broke the connection the rings would settle back. But, I guess the point there is that the primary side of the coil seems to be OK, but the failure would appear to be within the secondary. I also tried just holding the two spark plug bodies (attached at the threads) together and NOT attached to the coil lamination core, and again, nuthin'!! So, I content with prouncing this coil as being 'DEAD', and now going on the hunt for another one. I don't know if the rules prevent me from indicating that if anyone has one they want to part with to please PM me.......and IF so, please advise me and I'll delete that part of this post. Otherwise, ........ onward! Still waiting for the Gonzo boxes to arrive. However, I'm also thinking about just biting the bullet and ordering one of the 'E' kits off MikesXS. If anyone has any experience with those and can recommend one way or the other, please let me know too.

Thanks all! Tom D.

Wharfcreek said:

I don't know if the rules prevent me from indicating that if anyone has one they want to part with to please PM me...

Click to expand...

Yes that's allowed.
Quiet a few of us are running used Honda MP-08 coils. I've used them on the TCI and the GN250 setup. They work just fine. Look on Ebay. You'll usually find one for about 20 bucks or so.

You can usually find them even cheaper. I got a set of 3 from a Gold Wing 6 for about $24. Two are in service at the moment on mine and my buddy's bike (factory TCI on both), and we've got one for a spare .....



I like the fact that you can change the plug wires on them.

5twins said:

You can usually find them even cheaper. I got a set of 3 from a Gold Wing 6 for about $24.

Click to expand...

Not any more. I also got a good deal on 2 for about 15 bucks. Apparently these sellers have caught on to the fact that they're popular. Today's prices reflect that. Greedy buggers.

Is the MP-08 coil particularly 'close' to the OE Yamaha version? I'm just wondering if one of the other 'similar' coil sets would work? I found this set:

www.ebay.com/itm/265057294542

14-20 CTX1300 IGNITION COILS COIL STICK SET PACK SPARK PLUG CAPS PLUGS STICKS | eBay

And they look close, and for $22, I think I should grab 'em?

Edit: I did grab 'em! Hopefully they'll work. If not, back to the proverbial drawing board.

You'll need to measure the primary resistance when you get them (measure between the two small wire terminals). As long as it's around 3 ohms, you'll be good.

Hopefully that'll be about where it is. I guess 'hotter' coils can measue about twice that? I guess it's a crap shoot, but for $22 I had to give it a try.

Well no, that measurement doesn't relate to how "hot" or high performance a coil is. It matches up to the ignition system requirement. Points ignitions use a coil with about a 4 to 5 ohm primary. The original TCI coil has a 2.5 ohm primary but the 3.0 ohm Honda MP08 is close enough and works fine. But some electronic ignitions use a very low ohm coil (less than 1 ohm). That's what you'll be checking for because one of those wouldn't work for our TCI.

Jim said:

Not any more. I also got a good deal on 2 for about 15 bucks. Apparently these sellers have caught on to the fact that they're popular. Today's prices reflect that. Greedy buggers.

View attachment 191184

Click to expand...

Not as cheap but you can still get new ones for a decent price from 4into1 @ $21.95

https://4into1.com/dual-output-igni...f-vf700c-750c-1100c-cbr1000f-cbx-gl1100-1200/

Hummmm.......so, pretty tight window on the primary resistance side of these coils, eh?.......

Kinda funny!! I build 'tube' amplifiers for fun and profit! These amplifiers use a set of transformers, one 'power' (for converting the wall voltage to that needed to make the thing operate), and one 'output'....which is where the speakers hook up. But, the rather ironic thing here is that in building these amps, the 'primary' resistance of the output transformer is very critical, as it is what matches up to the type of output tube being used. The 'secondary' has a bit of a similarity to that of the spark coil in that I work with just one output impedance, which is generally 8 ohms, that of the speakers being use. This somewhat likens to the simple aspect of 'being a spark' from the ignition coil. I'm well aware that ignition coils have varying output voltages, making them 'hotter' as related to each other. This is similar to having an output transformer having 4, 8, 16, or even a 32 ohm secondary level. While the ignition coils may operate in the range 1 or 2 to 6 or 7 ohms on the primary side, the audio output transformers generally operate anywhere from about 3.5K ohms up to 10K......as needed for the type of tube and the 'configuration'; either single ended or push-pull (but that's another discussion....).

Anyway, I gather the complexity of ignition coil primary impedance is somewhat related to the sensitivity of the solid state device being used for the switching process within the ECU. I would guess (and it is PURLY a guess!!) that the advance curve is what is being controlled by the 'chip' within the ECU. In looking at the 'guts' of several of them, I note that there is generally both components; a IC chip, and a large switching transistor. As I sit and think about it, I would also guess that this primary resistance would relate in some way to the amount of current the switching device can handle......which would also relate to heat build up within the ECU box itself. But....I"m probably 'over-thinking' it, and for no good reason.

So I guess I'm now just waiting for the arrival of a good coil! And, one last question here might be about HT leads: Any specific advice about those? I know in some ignition systems the use of the carbon-fiber lead vs the conventional 'wire' lead is also Taboo! If I end up buying that coil from 4into1 (thx RustyPyles), it looks like I'd need wires as well......so maybe 4into1 sells 'em, but has 'choices'? Wanna make sure I get the right ones.

Jim & 5T....thanks for all the help here. As you may have guessed, I'm just getting back 'in' to my XS projects after a few years away from them. I sold 4 of my XS bikes, and now I'm just trying to sort out what's left, what's worth keeping, and what will end up going away when I'm finally done. So, again, I really appreciate the assistance!! Were you closer, I'd buy lunch!!

Tom

You will want the plain old non-resistor "wire" lead, not the carbon fiber resistor type. Personally, I use wire from kits for VW Beetles .....



There will be resistance in the circuit but you provide that with either a resistor spark plug cap or a resistor spark plug. Use one or the other but not both. You only want one example of resistance in the circuit.

For many years now, I've run NGK LB05 5K ohm resistor plug caps combined with plain non-resistor NGK BP7ES plugs .....





..... but it appears I may need to change this set-up in the future. I guess NGK has stopped making the non-resistor BP7ES plugs and all you can get now are the resistor version, the BPR7ES. So, to run those, I'll need to switch to a non-resistor plug cap. Luckily, NGK makes a very nice one, the LZFH .....

One more thing - you'll want the 7mm plug wire, the thicker 8mm stuff won't fit into the coil.

5..... good info! I'll try to put all that stuff in 'inventory' asap. BTW, I received a notification from MikesXS that they now have all the parts needed to complete the kits of their Electronic Ignition replacement packages. Have you or anyone you know ever used that kit and can provide any feedback as to it's function being suitable or not? I'm assuming that Mike's knows what they're doing and wouldn't sell a kit that didn't work. I think the entire package is under $300, which in today's world is pretty reasonable. While I fully intend to get this current bike up and running with either the OE TCI box or with a Gonzo conversion, I still have a plan to take a few locked-up motors I have around here and try to make one good running engine out of 'em. That will require going through this entire exercise once again, but next time I'll know a bit more about what I'm doing.

One thing that rather befuddles me is that no one has attempted to convert one of the many Harley after-market ignition boxes for use in an XS650? In particular, the Daytona company makes several, not all for HD I will mention, and the all have a single crank-trigger associated with their operation, and many have all sorts of variables in them, like advance curve, total advance, RPM Red Line, etc. I think many of them also operate with other sensory input, like a manifold pressure sensor or a Temp sensor. So, that may complicate things some, but still not something that perhaps an XS might benefit from if installed? Might require some modification to a manifold set-up, but again, that might all be good?

Anyway.....I'll pick up some of that wire, those caps, and a selection of spark plugs. I may swing into my local Yamaha dealer today and see what, if anything, they stock in this kind of thing.

Thanks again!!

Tom

Wharfcreek said:

5..... good info! I'll try to put all that stuff in 'inventory' asap. BTW, I received a notification from MikesXS that they now have all the parts needed to complete the kits of their Electronic Ignition replacement packages. Have you or anyone you know ever used that kit and can provide any feedback as to it's function being suitable or not? I'm assuming that Mike's knows what they're doing and wouldn't sell a kit that didn't work. I think the entire package is under $300, which in today's world is pretty reasonable. While I fully intend to get this current bike up and running with either the OE TCI box or with a Gonzo conversion, I still have a plan to take a few locked-up motors I have around here and try to make one good running engine out of 'em. That will require going through this entire exercise once again, but next time I'll know a bit more about what I'm doing.

One thing that rather befuddles me is that no one has attempted to convert one of the many Harley after-market ignition boxes for use in an XS650? In particular, the Daytona company makes several, not all for HD I will mention, and the all have a single crank-trigger associated with their operation, and many have all sorts of variables in them, like advance curve, total advance, RPM Red Line, etc. I think many of them also operate with other sensory input, like a manifold pressure sensor or a Temp sensor. So, that may complicate things some, but still not something that perhaps an XS might benefit from if installed? Might require some modification to a manifold set-up, but again, that might all be good?

Anyway.....I'll pick up some of that wire, those caps, and a selection of spark plugs. I may swing into my local Yamaha dealer today and see what, if anything, they stock in this kind of thing.

Thanks again!!

Tom

Click to expand...

Boyer is a good quality ignition. Been around a long time. They have pretty good tech support. I've got them from E-Bay for $225.

The auto parts store will be cheaper, especially for spark plugs. They sell the same NGK plugs for probably half what a bike shop asks for them.

OK, this week's progress was deterred somewhat by the fact that my significant other had the week off. So, needless to say, I had to alter my agenda some! However, I did get a chance to do a few things on the bike! Earlier this week I received a few used coils as well as one 'new' unit I'd ordered off ebay. The new unit came sans wires, so the 'used' coil packs became wire donors if nothing else. Long story short, I replaced coil, wires, end caps, and plugs......and still nothing. I also received my 2 'Gonzo' ECU boxes yesterday via UPS from the WalMart links. (I think WalMart actually just acts as a 'hookup' between it's customers and other outside vendors, as my boxes came from some 'MotorSports' place as opposed to actually coming from a WalMart warehouse or store. In any case, they're here!!). So, today I had a couple hours while the GF decided to go shopping on her own for a while (end of the week and I think she's gettin' sick of me!!). Anyway, deciding to take another stab at the bike, I decided to try another pickup unit off another stator assembly I had. Put it on......nuthin'!!! So, I'd checked to make sure I had 12V at the red/white wire at the coil, good continuity between the coil 'orange' wire and where it plugs into the ECU, and a good 12V at the ECU. Now working on a new coil, verified wiring, a new (different) pickup, a good 12V battery, and the same ECU. And, still not running. I'm down to two choices: Either A) the pickup isn't triggering, or B) the ECU is simply no good. Now having the 2 new Gonzo units to play with, it's time to give 'em a try. OR...... maybe one of the other two ECUs I have here might work......the 6-connector type. Plugs don't fit, but some snipping with a small pair of diagonal cutters and we can make that work! Plugged in one of those, 'spritzed' in some starter fluid, gave it a kick, and VROOM! It's alive!!

So, clearly the ECU was the problem! My plan is to now attempt to replace the old Yamaha unit with one of the new Suzuki 'Gonzo' units and see how that works. The bike is no where near being 'drivable'. It doesn't even have carbs on it yet. I'm just spraying starter fluid into the intake ports at this point. BUT......it's now proven that the 'engine' part is viable! So, from here, I'll tidy up the wiring some, install the carbs and gas tank, and see if I can get it to sit and idle. After that, a new chain, install the left side cover and see if there's any clutch action worth using. With luck, there'll be enough clutch to at least run the bike up and down the block.....and maybe even down the road and into 5th gear.

I can't thank you guy enough for the help and support here! I was getting pretty frustrated. I still have a LOT of work to do to sort through all the remaining 'good' electrical components, many that I've removed and unplugged, and figure out which one's need to be kept and which can be eliminated. I plan to keep the bike as electrically 'simple' as possible. I think going with the Suzuki ECU will do that, plus I've got a spare, so 'good for me'! And, I still have one more XS project down the road, so I now have what I'll consider to be a 'tested' and confirmed good ECU that I can work with on the next bike.

I guess that more or less wraps up this thread.....unless anyone has any other comments or suggestions. BTW, I'm thinking I'm going to just snip the wire leads off the bad Yamaha ECU, and then use spade connectors on the ends to attach it to the Gonzo ECU. Maybe pack the thing with some butyl to seal it but make it 'removable' if the Gonzo ever failed. Anyway...plenty to do, so probably another thread or two down the road.

Thanks again!! Tom D.

Just a quick 'add-on' here as a follow-up to the Gonzo thing: I did end up chopping the wires off my 'failed' TCI box, and after removing the Green/White wire from the block connector, as well as the 7th wire that triggers the headlights, I crimped on some female spade connectors so as to connect the remaining 5 wires to the Gonzo TCI. After confirming the wiring arrangement and making the connections, I removed the working 'stock' TCI connection and plugged in the Gonzo TCI. I hit the intake ports with some starting fluid and the bike lit on the first kick and revved like a banshee!! So, clearly the Gonzo TCI not only worked, but I dare say it actually showed improved performance over the stock TCI box in terms of developing RPM. Will this mean better engine performance overall and increased torque? Time will tell. Once I get the bike road-worthy I plan to do some swap-out testing and see what kind of results I get. I will post those on the Gonzo development thread.

Anyway, as of today I managed to get the end-blocks installed in the swing-arm, I installed a chain and adjusted the rear-wheel position. I found the swing-arm bolt to be loose, so I tightened it up. Re-adjusted the rear brake rod after moving the rear wheel. I also got the carbs installed and got the bike to idle pretty smoothly. However, this was on just a squirt-bottle hooked up to the fuel line. I finished the evening by installing the tank, hooking up the main fuel line, and I noted that my vacuum line to the petcock was split. So, I capped off the port tap and I'll just run the petcock in the 'prime' position for now. Hopefully no fuel leaks when all is said and done. As of now it's got about a half a gallon of gas in the tank and the line is on and the petcock is in 'prime' and nothing is leaking. But, may not have enough gas in the thing to flow out yet. That's as far as I got before I had to clean up and call it quits for the night. Oh, I also installed the left side cover and got the clutch cable hooked up, and installed the foot pegs and shift lever. So, in reality, I'm not that far from being ready to see if this thing will go down the road under power.

More to come.....but maybe time to start another thread.

Thanks all!!

Tom D.