dps650rider
XS650 Addict
Maybe, or possibly other problems.
BTW, mine chattered when new.
BTW, mine chattered when new.
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Hard to get into neutral
- Thread starter jun8ior
- Start date
dps650rider
XS650 Addict
Tried it out today after the hub swap... MUCH better. Did chatter once but was doing that earlier this season so don't know if the swap had any effect on that.
dps650rider
XS650 Addict
Hub swap helped but still not as good as it should be. Tried different oil and no change. Had unknown brand friction plates in the bike so swapped them for a set of OEM plates after lightly sanding them, etc. Been a couple weeks and no drag whatsoever now. Did have some problems with slipping and it's now OK after shimming replacement springs I have been using to increase tension. These springs are quite a bit stronger than OEM.
Seriously looking at the 8 plate conversion so springs don't need to be so tight.
Seriously looking at the 8 plate conversion so springs don't need to be so tight.
yamahammer
XS650 Addict
I don't get enough separation with a hydraulic setup either. It's much easier on the old carpal tunnel but I wouldn't expect a hydraulic actuator to fix the issue, I tried lol
dps650rider
XS650 Addict
Fyi, I put in new EBC plates from 650 Central and a set of Ferodo springs I have had for a while and the clutch works like new.
It's good to be in 1st holding the clutch in at lights, in case you need to haul ass out of the way quickly. Or slowly, as you're discovering
Changing gears at a standstill can take rocking the bike a little to get whatever is going on lined up right.
It can be harder if the engine is hot, maybe oil thinning out producing Tesla turbine effect between the separated clutch plates
yamahammer
XS650 Addict
I got some generic radial master cylinders that turned out to be knock off Brembo RC19 pumps, at least I think they're fakes. Real Brembos seem unlikely to cost 85 bucks per pair 
. They look good, which isn't too important to me, and more importantly they work GREAT! I get full separation of the clutch plates now, I can easily find neutral hot or cold. My whole clutch setup should someone want to replicate it is late model dampened hub / 7 Alto frictions / 6 normal steels / one piece pushrod / hydraulic actuator from the German vendor / Ivan's primary with needle bearings / heavy springs from Mike's / (6) 6mm washers under the clutch spring bolts to allow more travel ( I was experiencing coil bind as the clutch stack wasn't quite the right total thickness). I'm going to try the thicker XS1 steels next time I have the cover off because that would eliminate the need for the washers under my clutch spring retaining bolts, or maybe I will leave it alone since it's working well enough.
. They look good, which isn't too important to me, and more importantly they work GREAT! I get full separation of the clutch plates now, I can easily find neutral hot or cold. My whole clutch setup should someone want to replicate it is late model dampened hub / 7 Alto frictions / 6 normal steels / one piece pushrod / hydraulic actuator from the German vendor / Ivan's primary with needle bearings / heavy springs from Mike's / (6) 6mm washers under the clutch spring bolts to allow more travel ( I was experiencing coil bind as the clutch stack wasn't quite the right total thickness). I'm going to try the thicker XS1 steels next time I have the cover off because that would eliminate the need for the washers under my clutch spring retaining bolts, or maybe I will leave it alone since it's working well enough.Attachments
Can you tell me more about your hydraulic clutch setup. Is it described in another thread? ThxI got some generic radial master cylinders that turned out to be knock off Brembo RC19 pumps, at least I think they're fakes. Real Brembos seem unlikely to cost 85 bucks per pair
This thread is quite interesting because I'm currently exploring the hydraulic clutch conversion for my bike. My bike has a MikesXS 750 big bore kit and has a true 270 deg rephased crank. The motor is still being run in yet, so still has running in oil in it.
I have the Magura clutch lever fitted and found that I was getting huge clutch slip problems, as well as not being able to select neutral unless rolling, even though the clutch was adjusted correctly. I realise that I still have quite thick.oil in it yet and this might be causing the neutral issue but not the slip. Anyway, i took advice from Smedspeed in the UK, who suggested i exchange the clutch plates to EBC kevlar race plates for an early R1. They fit straight in. After putting it back together the clutch slip disappeared completely, but I still couldn't get neutral. This is why I'm now exploring a hydraulic conversion.
So, I have acquired an Aprilia Tuono slave cylinder, as has been tried in another thread, though I can't find it again. I know I need a master with approx. 19mm piston, which ought to get me around 4mm of actuator rod travel. After looking around, I couldn't really find anything with that size piston that would compliment the front brake mc setup, which is the std XS cylinder. So I ended up buying a cheapo chinese pair of 19RCS Brembo lookalike levers. As expected, the piston dia. isn't 'adjustable' like a brembo mc is, but hey they cost buttons. Anyway, I jury rigged the mc and sc up and tested the actuator rod travel. I achieved 3.65-3.67mm. I'm not sure how this compares to my cable setup yet. I intend to test this once the bike is run in and it's time to change the oil. If I discover a significant improvement of travel from the hydraulic setup then it might persuade me to go the distance and modify the LG engine casing to accept the mc.
Above shows my jury rig setup. I measured the end travel of the dummy actuator with a digital verbier.
I have the Magura clutch lever fitted and found that I was getting huge clutch slip problems, as well as not being able to select neutral unless rolling, even though the clutch was adjusted correctly. I realise that I still have quite thick.oil in it yet and this might be causing the neutral issue but not the slip. Anyway, i took advice from Smedspeed in the UK, who suggested i exchange the clutch plates to EBC kevlar race plates for an early R1. They fit straight in. After putting it back together the clutch slip disappeared completely, but I still couldn't get neutral. This is why I'm now exploring a hydraulic conversion.
So, I have acquired an Aprilia Tuono slave cylinder, as has been tried in another thread, though I can't find it again. I know I need a master with approx. 19mm piston, which ought to get me around 4mm of actuator rod travel. After looking around, I couldn't really find anything with that size piston that would compliment the front brake mc setup, which is the std XS cylinder. So I ended up buying a cheapo chinese pair of 19RCS Brembo lookalike levers. As expected, the piston dia. isn't 'adjustable' like a brembo mc is, but hey they cost buttons. Anyway, I jury rigged the mc and sc up and tested the actuator rod travel. I achieved 3.65-3.67mm. I'm not sure how this compares to my cable setup yet. I intend to test this once the bike is run in and it's time to change the oil. If I discover a significant improvement of travel from the hydraulic setup then it might persuade me to go the distance and modify the LG engine casing to accept the mc.
ippytattoo
Just another grumpy old hack.
I am not sure if you were talking about my thread or not but from my personal experience what I found to be a great combo is the 28mm diameter slave cylinder and a 13mm master cylinder. I get ~3.1mm separation and am close to getting spring binding on the pressure plate. 3.4mm could be past the point of binding. I have no trouble finding neutral while rolling or with the engine running at a stand still. I also run an alto 8 plate clutch which alters stack height just a little so "ymmv"
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Do you have a link to your thread?
ippytattoo
Just another grumpy old hack.
Thanks
Hi ippytattoo,
Yes, I recall reading your thread now you mention it and one by osteoderm who didn't conclude his findings on his setup. You really helped in narrowing down good choices for the slave units, so that is much appreciated. I tried to copy your suggestion re a 13mm piston but struggled to find a suitable clutch mc lever with a 13mm (ish) piston and after testing the piston travel of several ones a friend had lying around they all appeared to have piston travel distances of around 9-10mm. To shift a 28 dia slave by 3.1mm would require a 13 dia mc piston to travel 14.4mm and I simply couldn't find one that moved so far. At 9mm piston travel this would only convert to 2mm of actuator rod travel, so maybe not enough.
I may be wrong here but I seem to recall a figure of 4mm actuator rod travel being banded about, as an aiming point, which tbh honest seemed high to me. Anyway, I took this figure as a reference, hence why I went for the more common larger piston size. And even at 19mm I'm only getting 3.65-3.67mm. This may well be ok but will have to check if I get spring bind. I'm even more curious now to see what travel I get with the cable set up.
Yes, I recall reading your thread now you mention it and one by osteoderm who didn't conclude his findings on his setup. You really helped in narrowing down good choices for the slave units, so that is much appreciated. I tried to copy your suggestion re a 13mm piston but struggled to find a suitable clutch mc lever with a 13mm (ish) piston and after testing the piston travel of several ones a friend had lying around they all appeared to have piston travel distances of around 9-10mm. To shift a 28 dia slave by 3.1mm would require a 13 dia mc piston to travel 14.4mm and I simply couldn't find one that moved so far. At 9mm piston travel this would only convert to 2mm of actuator rod travel, so maybe not enough.
I may be wrong here but I seem to recall a figure of 4mm actuator rod travel being banded about, as an aiming point, which tbh honest seemed high to me. Anyway, I took this figure as a reference, hence why I went for the more common larger piston size. And even at 19mm I'm only getting 3.65-3.67mm. This may well be ok but will have to check if I get spring bind. I'm even more curious now to see what travel I get with the cable set up.
Can someone please explain what clutch spring bind is? Thx
It's when you compress a spring until the coils touch each other such that the spring will compress no further.
What you need to take into consideration when doing this is the clearance inside the case between the pressure plate and the inside of the cover. There isn't much, only a few MM. If you achieve too much pushrod travel and pressure plate movement, you may end up with something like this .....
The year of your cover will come into play here. Older covers aren't as deep as the later ones with the oil sight glass. My original '78 cover (old style, no sight glass) measured about 68mm deep. The newer sight glass cover I swapped on was 2mm deeper @ 70mm. My clutch pack sits about 64.6mm above the gasket surface on the engine case. That gives about 3.4mm (old cover) to 5.4mm (new cover) of clearance. The gasket would probably add another MM or so to that. The greatest amount of movement I could get on my pressure plate (worm and cable adjusted snug) was about .060" or about 1.5mm .....
I'm thinking pressure plate movement is pretty much the same as pushrod travel so if you were to achieve 4mm of pushrod travel, you may encounter clearance issues with an older cover.
The year of your cover will come into play here. Older covers aren't as deep as the later ones with the oil sight glass. My original '78 cover (old style, no sight glass) measured about 68mm deep. The newer sight glass cover I swapped on was 2mm deeper @ 70mm. My clutch pack sits about 64.6mm above the gasket surface on the engine case. That gives about 3.4mm (old cover) to 5.4mm (new cover) of clearance. The gasket would probably add another MM or so to that. The greatest amount of movement I could get on my pressure plate (worm and cable adjusted snug) was about .060" or about 1.5mm .....
I'm thinking pressure plate movement is pretty much the same as pushrod travel so if you were to achieve 4mm of pushrod travel, you may encounter clearance issues with an older cover.
5twins, that is pretty comprehensive information and a great help. My bike is a 1980, but has a cover with no sight glass. I shall be doing the checks like you have to be sure I don't exceed the cover clearance which, tbh, I had not given thought to. So thank you for drawing my attention to this. If a cable set up only gives circa 1.5mm of travel then for my purposes I guess anything greater than 2-2.5mm will be a significant improvement for finding neutral. So I will check things out carefully and if necessary research some lever set ups that have smaller dia pistons.
Yes, I think another MM of travel and plate separation would be a great improvement. I mean, when cold our stock 1.5mm of travel seems to be OK, neutral is easy to find. It's when things heat up and expand, and the amount of travel decreases a little bit, that we begin having neutral finding problems.
