Ignition trouble. Any guidance ?

JBMatthews82

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I have a new mikes xs charge RED with a new capacitor and an fairly new alternator that was installed by the previous owner. The issue is it was running at idle for a bit the other day when it decided to just cut off on its own. After 10 kicks I realized it wasn’t going to start. I walked away to tackle it another day. When I came back I brought a battery charger with me. I tried cranking without the charger first and nothing. Put the charger on in parallel with the capacitor and it fired first kick. However when I removed the charger it would cut off. Put the charger back on and it would fire back. Tonight I removed the capacitor wiring and tried checking the microfarads and my meter didn’t show anything. I decided to leave those wires disconnected and use the charger to crank the bike and see if it would continue running or not. Anyhow when I connected the charger without the capacitor and turned my key to ignition the coil started chattering. Connect the cap back in line and it stoped chattering. Fired it up with the charger and it still runs when I take the charger off. So I’m stumped. Please help
 
That is one mystery with electrics and electronic. It can be heat and vibration dependent.
I have no personal experience of these system But My first guess would be that the charging is weak.
Somewhere. Connectors regulator switches and so on.
But can also be the ignition itself.
Does it stop again after 10 min heat ?

No Capacitor reading on the meter is one sign worth investigating .

Connecting a charger with parts out can be risky I do it myself across the battery when I get fed on no starting.
But try keep it to a minimum
 

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That is one mystery with electrics and electronic. It can be heat and vibration dependent.
I have no personal experience of these system But My first guess would be that the charging is weak.
Somewhere. Connectors regulator switches and so on.
But can also be the ignition itself.
Does it stop again after 10 min heat ?

No Capacitor reading on the meter is one sign worth investigating .

Connecting a charger with parts out can be risky I do it myself across the battery when I get fed on no starting.
But try keep it to a minimum
Thanks. It seems to work fine as long as the cap is in place so I assume it acts as a buffer. Maybe the dc battery charger is pulsating causing the chatter.
 
I removed the capacitor wiring and tried checking the microfarads and my meter didn’t show anything
That rotor is similar to an XSCharge system (Mike's, TCBros). There are a couple of ways to test the Cap, but if it doesn't have specs, can be inconclusive. Substituting a 12V, 5-12AH battery is another way; you can then test the PMA/regulator output and see if the ignition sparks that way.
 
Ok, so the 3 wires from the pma what should I check for? And it sounds like I’ll always have trouble with the cap system so I may as well fab up a new battery box in place of the cap. Is the 5ah enough for this bike? Could I go smaller? My key switch is 3 position. Off , ignition only, ignition and lights.
The bike runs perfectly fine when it decides to fire. Regardless of the state if I connect a charger to the cap it will fire first kick every time.
 
The 3 yellow wires should produce ~15VAC between each of them when running. More importantly, there should be a charge wire from the regulator (likely red) that should carry ~14VDC @ ~2000rpm (measured between battery or Cap. + and ground).

A 5Ah battery will be fine for kick only system. Some are quite small, especially dry-cell or LiFePo
 
The 3 yellow wires should produce ~15VAC between each of them when running. More importantly, there should be a charge wire from the regulator (likely red) that should carry ~14VDC @ ~2000rpm (measured between battery or Cap. + and ground).

A 5Ah battery will be fine for kick only system. Some are quite small, especially dry-cell or LiFePo
My test results.
Only average 5 Volts ac between the 3 yellow PMA wires. The red wire from the regulator ahead 7vdc. It fired right up first kick tonight without the battery charger being connected to the cap but it only ran long enough to get the testing done before it just ran out of juice. I tried disconnecting the cap while it was running and it instantly died. I know on a car it should continue running without a battery as long as the alternator is putting out correctly. Is that the case with this? Do I have a bad charging system? If so what is the best one you’d recommend? And is there anything I should look for to see why it would have failed? I am an electrician by trade. Build control panels. So I’m pretty confident in my wiring. It’s really too simple to mess up. Red wire to the cap and then on to the switch. From the switch to middle position terminal going through a Fuse to my ignition. From the 3rd switch position to a fuse block then on to brake light switches and head light switch. Nothing to it really. This is frustrating, just hope to get it problem free before riding season
 
You could have a weak PMA, but it's a bit curious that all 3 legs are evenly low. I know the bike is new to you; I'd check to see if there is corrosion inside the flywheel and check ground to engine block first. I do recall some talk of weak magnets on those flywheels too.

XSCharge, XS Performance electrics have had several issues reported - not the best record (especially Cap system). The alternatives I'd recommend are Hugh's Handbilt or VAPE ($$)
 
Again no experience on these.
But I have heard of pirated regulators of questionable quality
Please google and compare.

Thinking out loud here --- Is it not just magnets rotating close to coils
So disconnecting the rest downstream and running measuring the output on the wires from
alternator would it not be possible. Short test

I am an electrician by trade. Build control panels.

Any Schematic available ???
 
Again no experience on these.
But I have heard of pirated regulators of questionable quality
Please google and compare.

Thinking out loud here --- Is it not just magnets rotating close to coils
So disconnecting the rest downstream and running measuring the output on the wires from
alternator would it not be possible. Short test

I am an electrician by trade. Build control panels.

Any Schematic available ???
E9B2B93E-9DBE-40A1-A94C-2AC175747F7E.jpeg

I ordered a new PMA system from Hugh’s yesterday. Hope to get this in place and remedy all issues.
 
View attachment 233347
I ordered a new PMA system from Hugh’s yesterday. Hope to get this in place and remedy all issues.
I know it's twice the money vs just the PMA, but Hugh offers the PMA with a CDI that would eliminate the XSCharge ignition as well and probably work better with a capacitor. My understanding is the CDI part cannot be retro-fitted to his PMA only system in the future. Just sayin....;)
 
Yes Sir
New is Always New ..I would have saved a lot of problems and time
replacing
I cannot se any mention of the Capacitor included in the Kits.
And the one there on the bike did not show values.

What I was thinking about if possible is take out the capacitor replace with a battery
Disconnect after the 3 Yellow PMA Wiring
Perhaps best take out the regulator also
Believing it will start and run on the battery and then measure Voltage between the 3 Yellow ones
Getting info if it is weak.

On some systems both the regulator and alternator fry but not on all.
 
I know it's twice the money vs just the PMA, but Hugh offers the PMA with a CDI that would eliminate the XSCharge ignition as well and probably work better with a capacitor. My understanding is the CDI part cannot be retro-fitted to his PMA only system in the future. Just sayin....;)
 
I sure hope I don’t need a new ignition. The XS charge ignition system is brand new as of last summer with about 2-3 hours on it tops. Most of that was test rides for jetting.
 
Yes Sir
New is Always New ..I would have saved a lot of problems and time
replacing
I cannot se any mention of the Capacitor included in the Kits.
And the one there on the bike did not show values.

What I was thinking about if possible is take out the capacitor replace with a battery
Disconnect after the 3 Yellow PMA Wiring
Perhaps best take out the regulator also
Believing it will start and run on the battery and then measure Voltage between the 3 Yellow ones
Getting info if it is weak.

On some systems both the regulator and alternator fry but not on all.
Yes I could at least determine if the regulator or the rotor/alternator is bad but I have no intentions of keeping it. I did measure the three yellow wires (5vdv) but the regular was still plugged in so maybe if it had faulted it could be drawing the alternator down to only produce 5v.
 
Yes I could at least determine if the regulator or the rotor/alternator is bad but I have no intentions of keeping it. I did measure the three yellow wires (5vdv) but the regular was still plugged in so maybe if it had faulted it could be drawing the alternator down to only produce 5v.

Perhaps to little to late . I am interested in electronics and these just for the hobby.
There is some routines with values

https://www.mikesxs.net/blog/how-to-test-the-xs-charge-pma-system/

How To: Test The XS Charge PMA System​


I ( almost ) always keep things I take out ..Someday it can be needed
And if you are not .It can be sold on to someone for a couple of bucks.

The regulator has a simple routine and so has the Windings in the stator.

Thinking out loud with no experience like a seamstress
Guessing.
The regulator fried and then cooked the Stator Windings

I can see a 10 A fuse upsstream on the ignition ..that is good.
 
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