Miss November XS2 tribute

The joy of antique machinery. If it breaks down in a roundabout, at least you get a story to tell. If it doesn’t, it’s just a mundane trip to keep to yourself.

At the Ozark rally my bike quit running. John Chaves pushed me a mile (or was it 10 miles) with his bike. He did it by placing his right foot on my left passenger peg and us running down the highway like that. It got me to a place where we could get a truck and trailer.

Enjoy!
That’s what friends are for! :cheers:
 
At the Ozark rally my bike quit running. John Chaves pushed me a mile (or was it 10 miles) with his bike. He did it by placing his right foot on my left passenger peg and us running down the highway like that. It got me to a place where we could get a truck and trailer.
The art of towing bike/bike is lost.
 
Yesterday, two outings, again forty-something miles. No problems with engine quitting but outside the farm food shop, took three kicks to light the fires.

Now, usually the Orange Peril is a first kick bike, especially warm. So after two kicks with no sense of about to start, began to feel a bit like 'Here we go again!' Or rather, 'Here we don't go again!' However, three was a charm and once started there was no hesitation or other unusual symptoms.

This morning, going to take a look at the plugs - Yamaha made 'em so easy to access. Probably not tell me much, but probably replace them anyhow just 'coz.
 
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New plugs, bike running fine, till it wasn't. Shut down again t'other day which makes about five times by my recollection. Again, it was when I throttled back approaching some downhill bends. Perhaps the wags will suggest don't close the throttle then? Re-started after maybe 8 or 9 kicks, ran home with no problems.

Today, investigated whether there might be a charging issue. Voltage across the battery, engine off 12.58. With engine running about 2-2½ thousand rpm that goes up 14.64 so I guess the charging ain't a problem.

Could there be some intermittent electrical problemo? And how to find it? People have suggested the coil breaking down when hot but I don't think it would restart after such a short time. Mind, I would try replacing the coil if I had a spare one. IIRC coil is BB dual output.

Next approach, when I have the time, remove the carbs, see if there's rust'n'grit, check and clean the main and pilot jets. Though I'm not sure iffy carbs can cause this sort of problem.
 
New plugs, bike running fine, till it wasn't. Shut down again t'other day which makes about five times by my recollection. Again, it was when I throttled back approaching some downhill bends. Perhaps the wags will suggest don't close the throttle then? Re-started after maybe 8 or 9 kicks, ran home with no problems.

Today, investigated whether there might be a charging issue. Voltage across the battery, engine off 12.58. With engine running about 2-2½ thousand rpm that goes up 14.64 so I guess the charging ain't a problem.

Could there be some intermittent electrical problemo? And how to find it? People have suggested the coil breaking down when hot but I don't think it would restart after such a short time. Mind, I would try replacing the coil if I had a spare one. IIRC coil is BB dual output.

Next approach, when I have the time, remove the carbs, see if there's rust'n'grit, check and clean the main and pilot jets. Though I'm not sure iffy carbs can cause this sort of problem.
Are you running a fuel filter?

In your carburetors, do you have screens in the float valves?

My bike was acting funny before it failed altogether. Cause: debris in tank, torn petcock screen, clogged fuel filter.
 
Bloody bikes. Did it again today. Went to fill the tank, half a mile after leaving the filling station, backed off to take a turn off, felt the engine give up. Turned into the side road, coasted to a halt. First kick, nothing, second kick, felt slightly lively, third kick bellowed into life. Road home with no further hiccups.

Can't fathom it. Must take a look at the carbs . . .
 
Bloody bikes. Did it again today. Went to fill the tank, half a mile after leaving the filling station, backed off to take a turn off, felt the engine give up. Turned into the side road, coasted to a halt. First kick, nothing, second kick, felt slightly lively, third kick bellowed into life. Road home with no further hiccups.

Can't fathom it. Must take a look at the carbs . . .
Something strange is going on. Sudden death? I would suspect an electrical problem. The only time my bikes have quit with a carburetor problem, they ran out of gas. That isn’t so sudden. I can feel it coming. Suddenly off means no spark in my thinking.
 
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Something strange is going on. Sudden death? I would suspect an electrical problem. The only time my bikes have quit with a carburetor problem, they ran out of gas. That isn’t so sudden. I can feel it coming. Suddenly off means no spark in my thinking.
That’s what I keep thinking. Something in the ignition chain, something that fails when it heats up maybe? Like coils or electronic ignition? 🤷‍♂️
Yes, agree. But - and why does there always seem to be a but - if it's an electrical issue due to overheating then why has it sometimes happened after half-a-mile and other times not until fifty miles? And why does the bike usually re-start pretty soon after stopping?
 
The key symptom seems to be the engine dying after closing the throttle. It's got me baffled. I was wondering if the slides were sticking down, but if they were I guess the motor would still tick over. It's all very strange.
One of those 'checking the obvious' things - do you fuel filters and if so might they be clogged?
 
It's an odd one. hard to point it towards any one thing due to the bike cylinders running on their own systems. I can't remember if you are running 2 coils or a single. 2 fuel systems and 2 electrical systems, unless running one coil then that could trigger a shut down

Can't remember but i think you have a Boyer ignition.

The thing that is coming to my mind as a question is, could the Boyer Advance box be breaking down when the electrical current is quickly reduced through the low engine revs.

Writing this i remembered they, (Boyer), used to have a warning on their website, (not there now), advising their box would sometimes cut out completely. This was said to be because our XS650's would have power fluctuations, that would trigger it to shut down. The fix was to turn the key off and on again to reset the box and it was bobs your uncle and on your way again.
 
Raymond when you had your oil leak is there a chance some may have gotten under the ignition cover And caused an issue? Just grasping at straws although Skulls post is interesting.
 
I'm still leaning toward electrical connection....I like Skull's more specific theory. A verifiable condition that may indicate more likelihood of that scenario is if the bike normally had a voltage drop at the "Boyer"/coils exceeding 1volt.

I did have a 750K (fresh outta winter storage) that displayed similar symptoms for a few days; turned out to be a clogged fuel cap vent:umm:
 
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@Raymond I've been pondering your problem. Very strange it only dies when closing the throttle. As others have said a fuel problem will normally manifest by dropping 1 cylinder then the other. Plus very unusual for both to die on decel. When you close the throttle the slides should drop and the engine should get enough fuel through the pilots and idle circuits to run. If they both got plugged at the same time opening the throttle should give the engine enough fuel to run again.
As far as ignition it's also strange to only die when closing the throttle. I had a problem with a electronic ignition that caused my bike to die. Throttle position made no difference. Strictly a time/temp thing.
Since your problem does not make a lot of sense you may need to set a trap to find it. What you need to do is find what it's loosing fuel or spark. I would get something like this tach that uses induction for it's sense. Watch it when the bike is running and then see what it does when the bike dies.
Once you figure out whether it's spark or fuel you will know which road to follow.
In the mean time I would very carefully go over all the connections on your Boyer. The ground on mine does not go through the frame, it has it's own wire back to the battery.

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OK, these are Raymond's quotes starting back when the problem started.....

"But the bike has started stopping. When we set off, coasting down to the main road half-a-mile from home, the engine cut out."

"On the way home from Elliot's, barreling along a farm road at 60-ish, the bike was running well, until I part-closed throttle approaching a kink and I felt the engine shut down. Of course, it's still turning. Tried opening & closing throttle, and as we lost speed tried selecting a lower gear, but no go. Coasted to a halt and the engine was dead."

"Coming home on a route over Mosshouses, bike was running so well, till it wasn't anymore. Felt the engine just give up. Same as Tuesday, coasted to a halt with a dead engine."

"Turned on to a minor road a few miles from home, came up behind a slow car. Like, so slow I had to start changing down as I caught up. And felt the engine just stop. Letting the clutch out makes no difference, it won't catch."

"Shut down again t'other day which makes about five times by my recollection. Again, it was when I throttled back approaching some downhill bends. Perhaps the wags will suggest don't close the throttle then? Re-started after maybe 8 or 9 kicks, ran home with no problems."

"half a mile after leaving the filling station, backed off to take a turn off, felt the engine give up."


Looks like it's always on decel. As JP and others have said... I think it's electrical. A loose connection that breaks on deceleration and (looks like) it makes a connection back in the process of kicking it back to life.

It wasn't doing it before the tank weld failure, so I guess under the tank is as good a place as any to start looking for loose connections.
 
Clean forgot to add above....

Carbs (and the fuel system in general) seldom, if ever just up and quit without a pop or a fart or a by your leave, to warn you it's about to take a nap. What are the odds of 2 carbs consistently doing the same? :er:
 
When I had my XS2, I had an intermittent problem that had me pulling my hair out. When it was first started it ran great. Take off on a ride and all was well until the motor got hot, then it would start misfiring and backfiring and wouldn’t start again if you shut it off. Until it cooled down then all was well again. At first I thought it was the coils breaking down, so I replaced those. That didn’t fix it.

Eventually it was determined to be the Pamco ignition failing when it got hot. I replaced it with a Boyer and never looked back. Fixed it.

I know you are running a Boyer, and it may not be your problem but there is one known failure with Boyers, the timing plate can warp and cause the solder spots on the underside of the board to come in to contact with the timing rotor. It might be worth a look.

IMG_5810.jpegIMG_5812.jpegIMG_5811.jpeg
 
Gentlemen, thank you for your ideas. Gary, thought about fuel starvation/blocked tank vent but doesn't seem right, don't seem to build a vacuum in the tank. And as Jim says, carbs would give the running outta fuel symptoms, but there's none. Jim, thank you for bringing together my reports on the problem - it really does look like the problem happens on backing off. From sitting on the bike, it feels like the spark is just shut off - with the bike in gear, the engine is still turning but not running and nothing, open/shut throttle, change down a gear, gives as much as a fart. It's like somebody flicked Kill.

Skull's comments very interesting. :
The thing that is coming to my mind as a question is, could the Boyer Advance box be breaking down when the electrical current is quickly reduced through the low engine revs.
Writing this i remembered they, (Boyer), used to have a warning on their website, (not there now), advising their box would sometimes cut out completely. This was said to be because our XS650's would have power fluctuations, that would trigger it to shut down. The fix was to turn the key off and on again to reset the box and it was bobs your uncle and on your way again.
It's not really the iggy shutting off at low revs, happens while we're still motoring. But the Boyer giving up because it doesn't like the voltage it's getting or sommat similar sounds right.

And it's reminded me of the problem in July 2021 when I fitted non-resistor plug caps, on that occasion, the bike ran for a few miles then gave up completely: https://www.xs650.com/threads/miss-november-xs2-tribute.55057/post-702448

So now I'm thinking that an electrical glitch such as intermittent connector confusses the Boyer box which then takes a huff and shuts down.

This is a good hypothesis and I'll need to check the wiring ignition switch-kill switch-Boyer box for good connection. Take a look at the sender plate too as Bob suggested.

Probably won't happen till we are back from Cornwall - going on a trip in Mrs' car to visit the Eden Project.
 
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