Zen
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2003 Royal Enfield 500 Deluxe
- Thread starter Raymond
- Start date
Thank you for all the suggestions. None feels quite right. I don't think I seek the satisfaction of tinkering, solving problems. I think what I enjoy is the riding, but I'm too fussy and don't want a modern, soulless, machine. I love the engine to feel loose, heavy flywheel, easy, just loping along.
But we don't really know why we do what we do, why we like certain things and not others. Well I don't and maybe if I did I would avoid always appearing to do things the difficult way?
But anyway, new carb and fitting kit arrived this afternoon.
Off with the old inlet and on with the new.
Easy enough to fit the new carb. Apologies for the dreadful picture - the camera was insistent on flashing.
Tank fitted and looking like a motorbike again. In the by-now late afternoon sun.
But no fairy tale ending. Had to use carb cleaner to get it to fire. Would not settle to a reasonable idle - I think the issue, yet again, is the fuel tank trapping the (new) throttle cable. So tomorrow, gonna be tank off, try to find a better route for the cable, tank on, repeat.
But we don't really know why we do what we do, why we like certain things and not others. Well I don't and maybe if I did I would avoid always appearing to do things the difficult way?
But anyway, new carb and fitting kit arrived this afternoon.
Off with the old inlet and on with the new.
Easy enough to fit the new carb. Apologies for the dreadful picture - the camera was insistent on flashing.
Tank fitted and looking like a motorbike again. In the by-now late afternoon sun.
But no fairy tale ending. Had to use carb cleaner to get it to fire. Would not settle to a reasonable idle - I think the issue, yet again, is the fuel tank trapping the (new) throttle cable. So tomorrow, gonna be tank off, try to find a better route for the cable, tank on, repeat.
When you're done at the end of the day, just relax with your favorite beverage. We are what we are, I wouldn't waste my time fighting it(the internal conflict). Good luck my friend.
Persig's finest work. Enjoy. 
Far as I know, there's no copyright anymore. Robert died in 2017...
Far as I know, there's no copyright anymore. Robert died in 2017...
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Raymond, it’s a question we all ask ourselves often. Me, I love the spannering (more than electrics for sure) as much as riding. A win in the spanner’s is rewarded by the eventual ride. Every time I complete a job, especially beyond my known skill set, is a small win to a bigger goal.
It’s something in the blood and the mind set. Anyway the cost of a new RE etc could pay for someone else to complete the work on the old stuff; but where’s the reward in that.
Try running it from a dummy tank first.
That idea has merit!
Had the tank on and off more often than a tart's undies and it used to be alright but these days keep getting problems like engine racing or hanging idle or throttle won't shut. There's notalot of space and impossible to see where the cable is getting trapped.
Jim, Zen and the art - enjoyed the book when I read it many years ago but looking back, I think Pirsig had some minor insight but hell he made a meal out of it . . .
That he did.
The significance of this photo is the Royal Enfield is just back from a short trip to the next village.
Throttle cable definitely jamming and seemed to be the cause of runaway revs. Have looked in vain for a diagram of the 'correct' routing so it was a matter of playing about. Have put the cable below the top frame tube at the front and gently routed up around to reach the top of the carb, held loosely with a couple of cable ties. Had the tank on & off till I was happy the throttle cable was not being badly impeded and the slide would fully shut down. There's still a slight issue - at full right lock, the revs rise a bit but not dangerously and moving the bars that far is not sommat I expect to do with the engine running.
Bike was back to starting first kick - it was warmed up from repeated messing about - and a reasonable tick-over so I grabbed a helmet and set off for a short test ride. Gained enough confidence driving up through the village that we headed off to the next village. In other words, further than I would really want to push . . . so that's a vote of confidence in the new carb. Which seems to be behaving itself.
Couple gratuitous piccies of the old dowager and the young pretender.
Doesn't the Enfield look kinda spindly next to a mighty 650?
Throttle cable definitely jamming and seemed to be the cause of runaway revs. Have looked in vain for a diagram of the 'correct' routing so it was a matter of playing about. Have put the cable below the top frame tube at the front and gently routed up around to reach the top of the carb, held loosely with a couple of cable ties. Had the tank on & off till I was happy the throttle cable was not being badly impeded and the slide would fully shut down. There's still a slight issue - at full right lock, the revs rise a bit but not dangerously and moving the bars that far is not sommat I expect to do with the engine running.
Bike was back to starting first kick - it was warmed up from repeated messing about - and a reasonable tick-over so I grabbed a helmet and set off for a short test ride. Gained enough confidence driving up through the village that we headed off to the next village. In other words, further than I would really want to push . . . so that's a vote of confidence in the new carb. Which seems to be behaving itself.
Couple gratuitous piccies of the old dowager and the young pretender.
Doesn't the Enfield look kinda spindly next to a mighty 650?
Two beauties!
Good job well done Raymond.
See, the reward is the ride for the hard work put in.
Who wants a new bike version of an original now!
Ads.
I think you're better at summing it up than me, Ads.
Don't quite understand the attraction - it's not that the original is especially good or even authentic. The Indian factory just went on manufacturing a bike from a bygone age for many decades when the parent company in England was long gone.
Gives a 1940's riding experience. A peculiar mixture of rightness - this is how motorcycling ought to be, sat upright on a sprung saddle, looking over the hedges, the joy of being carried along without having to pedal but also eccentricity - the rest of the World has moved on but this anachronism has a right-foot, one up, three down gear change. And a neutral finder. And a separate gearbox filled with grease.
Also laugh-out-loud preposterous - something that wouldn't look out of place in a museum, with an engine designed before the war, external oil lines, pushrods, drum brakes and a chuff-chuff-chuff soundtrack yet manages to do the job.
Awesome Raymond! I was going for a 1920's riding experience with my rigid-framed bobber build: achieved. lol
or not. Today, two short trips to the next village, camera tucked into a pocket. Never made it either time.
The road, less than two miles, gradually rises most of the way, levels off, then drops around a couple of bends as you approach the village speed limit. This morning, exploring the response with the new carb, gave it a touch more throttle. Not a lot, maybe half open. This was as we got to the top of the gradual rise. But the bike immediately held back, felt like the engine had given up. Tried juggling with the throttle, but as soon as I pulled the clutch out, the engine stopped.
Turned round in the road, gave a kick and it re-started so rode off carefully and motored home all the way.
Investigated the problem at home? Well, not really - just left the bike to cool down a bit then kick started again. Seemed fine, took throttle provided I was gentle opening the tap - too much made the bike spit back through the carb.
Maybe opening the throttle too fast had been the problem earlier? Lets' go again and keep a steadier hand. But as soon as we crested the slight rise and began to drop downhill, the engine held back. Pulled the clutch, it stopped. Repeat performance in fact, including re-starting and motoring home.
Now does that sound like a mixture problem? The plug looks quite dark around the edge but pale around the tip and the side electrode. Maybe goes weak on the transition from pilot to needle? Raise the needle?
plug pics?
So, long steady pull up the hill, a bit more throttle but engine doesn't respond - maybe bogs a bit. If you roll back off a bit does the motor pick back up?
So, long steady pull up the hill, a bit more throttle but engine doesn't respond - maybe bogs a bit. If you roll back off a bit does the motor pick back up?
It's not much of a hill, but I let the bike take it's time so as not to risk lugging the engine. As the road levels off, and speed picks up - hey, we're only talking 50ish mph - gave it a bit more and it didn't so much bog down as give up. Juggling the throttle didn't save it.
The second time, didn't really add much more throttle but as the road levelled and speed climbed the engine again just gave up - tried less, tried more, couldn't catch it. Had me thinking, is this a heat issue? The engine stops once the bike has warmed up - it seemed like a good theory because we covered the same distance. But that's why tuning a bike is difficult, your mind generates too many theories. You have to firmly ban all Bermuda Triangle thoughts.
When the bike is cold, seems to be quite fussy - a touch too much throttle makes it spit, close completely will let it just peter out and stop. Open the tap a bit more than a tiny touch will let it settle to a faster idle. Or give a dying spit and stop. So it needs real careful warming up.
I don't think it's too far away from what it needs.
Forgot to say, this morning, before going out I tried playing with the timing. Advancing it a tiny smidge seemed worse with the spitting. Retarding it a little bit seemed to help with being able to hold a tick-over, but made the engine feel a shade flat - which might just be my imagining.
Thank you for your help, JP, now pick the bones out of that subjective diatribe.
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lol...picking through bones and looking for gems...
The cold finicking and flatness...
The cold finicking and flatness...
would lead me to "theorize" some leaness. Perhaps richen the idle circuit and raise the needle (lower clip). One bigger main jet.
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Thank you, JP. Following up on your suggestions, got into the new carb today. The arrangement of floats and needle tab is different to what I've seen before, and there's a fuel cup around the main jet:
Guess it's to even out the sloshing about & turbulence that must go on in a busy float bowl? Anyhow, the settings and changes made.
Main is 190, Hitchcocks provided two spares, a 180 and a 190. Yup. So no change made.
Pilot is 25, Hitchcocks provided two spares, a 20 and a 30, so I have installed the 30.
Needle is a 6DP 17, whatever that means. Apparently, it's a replacement for 6DP5. Ahem, still no wiser. Clip is in the middle of five notches, so I thought to move it down one. But it's so small and fiddly I gave up - rather than risk bending or losing the clip, I placed a small washer under the clip. It's a valid expedient?
Started the bike. It still spits and stops. Started to wonder if the problem is spark not mixture? This is when my brain always comes up with too many hypotheses. T'other day, I retarded the ignition to see if that would help - it didn't - so today decided to put it back to (roughly) where I had it before.
Then I noticed that the points cover had left an oily ring behind:
I know some oil from around the back of the engine gets onto the points cover and presumably some makes ingress? There's no seal, in fact there's the open slot the wires go through. Would slight oiliness in the points lead to missing?
I take consolation that this is self-inflicted frustration . . .
Guess it's to even out the sloshing about & turbulence that must go on in a busy float bowl? Anyhow, the settings and changes made.
Main is 190, Hitchcocks provided two spares, a 180 and a 190. Yup. So no change made.
Pilot is 25, Hitchcocks provided two spares, a 20 and a 30, so I have installed the 30.
Needle is a 6DP 17, whatever that means. Apparently, it's a replacement for 6DP5. Ahem, still no wiser. Clip is in the middle of five notches, so I thought to move it down one. But it's so small and fiddly I gave up - rather than risk bending or losing the clip, I placed a small washer under the clip. It's a valid expedient?
Started the bike. It still spits and stops. Started to wonder if the problem is spark not mixture? This is when my brain always comes up with too many hypotheses. T'other day, I retarded the ignition to see if that would help - it didn't - so today decided to put it back to (roughly) where I had it before.
Then I noticed that the points cover had left an oily ring behind:
I know some oil from around the back of the engine gets onto the points cover and presumably some makes ingress? There's no seal, in fact there's the open slot the wires go through. Would slight oiliness in the points lead to missing?
I take consolation that this is self-inflicted frustration . . .
Ah yes, that carb design is very familiar and exactly what one would see on VM carbs from a Yamaha RD. No worries.
The 6DP17 is listed in my Mikuni manual with its dimensions FWIW
I understand it's not right yet, but if you decide to take it for a brisk spin, perhaps the spark plugs will give a clue you're heading right on jetting.
The oiliness in points chamber is curious, but I've seen machines that had that habit. If the point contacts aren't contaminated perhaps just the nature of the beast. You advanced the time a bit and that may help with the flatness - hoping.
The clips, I like to deal with by pressing the open side (while on needle) directly against a hard surface to pop them off (same against closed end going on). The washer may have approximated a position, but may want more.
What air screw setting did they suggest?
The 6DP17 is listed in my Mikuni manual with its dimensions FWIW
I understand it's not right yet, but if you decide to take it for a brisk spin, perhaps the spark plugs will give a clue you're heading right on jetting.
The oiliness in points chamber is curious, but I've seen machines that had that habit. If the point contacts aren't contaminated perhaps just the nature of the beast. You advanced the time a bit and that may help with the flatness - hoping.
The clips, I like to deal with by pressing the open side (while on needle) directly against a hard surface to pop them off (same against closed end going on). The washer may have approximated a position, but may want more.
What air screw setting did they suggest?
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Additional main jets here (if desired)
https://yambits.co.uk/190-mikuni-main-jet-hj-long-hex-p-74.html
https://yambits.co.uk/190-mikuni-main-jet-hj-long-hex-p-74.html