A former life.

This thread about dogs made me recall one of my favorites Harley the Shepard Husky mix. Not sure if I told this story before on this forum but forgive me if it's a repeat!

Many years back our electric meter reader was a guy we knew well and he had been to our house many times for parties and such and was familiar with "Harley". One Friday we just happened to be home when Jim the meter reader pulled in driveway to read the meter. Wife saw him and just as he was getting out of the truck she opened the back door and said "Get him Harley!" Harley cleared the two back steps and shot out across the driveway at Jim. Jim slammed the door as he jumped back in the truck. Wife then went out the door and took hold of Harley's collar. A couple seconds later Jim did get out of the truck and say Hi to Harley.

That's when we learned that just a couple days before Jim had been attacked by a "not friendly dog" and had to go to hospital due to the dog bite on his leg! What made it even better was the fact that latter that night we were going to a party with a group of friends many who knew Harley and the party was at Jim's house. So everyone got a kick out of the story especially those who knew Harley!

I we have had many dogs over the 70 years but Harley has to be my favorite still have a picture of him on shelf above my desk.
 
That's called anthropomorphism Gggary! Any dog dog can be made to look guilty, even if they didn't do anything. it's called conditioning...
 
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gggGary said:
I agree with a lot of what you say but this is not true. And that's the thing dogs ARE like humans they sometimes seem to be compelled do things they know are wrong. I will say they are lousy liars.... :sneaky: Oh they lie, but if called out on it cannot hide that they are guilty as sin.
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I'll have to disagree. A dog knows (learns) what gets him a treat and a pat on the head... and knows (learns) what gets him a smack on the arse. There's no concept of right or wrong there... just a learned response to pain/pleasure.... and as a consequence, no feelings of guilt.
Children are often trained the same way... and don't ask my opinion of "spare the paddle".... but children grow into adults who for the most part develop a sense of "morality"... a sense of right or wrong that goes far beyond the pain/pleasure response learned as a kid. Dogs do not. They don't do things they "know" are wrong, just that doing it will displease you and not get them a pat or a treat.
The dog in Skulls example had no idea it was "wrong" to kill the kid. And since he was never "trained" to know it would displease the masters.... here we are.
 
Fear of consequence, something today's kids don't know anything about. Us oldies grew up with it: Do something wrong and you got the hell beaten out of you. Never did me any harm, I don't dislike my parents for it, I thank them for it. Thanks to them I know right from wrong and what will happen to me, as an adult, if I stray from the path. When I was a kid in the 50s, I would never have thought of graffiti, answering back, disobeying a cop, not giving up my seat for a lady or a grown up, leaving my hat on inside, not saying please and thank you, taking more than two biscuits and so on. Now compare that with today's kids.
 

gggGary said:
And that's the thing dogs ARE like humans they sometimes seem to be compelled do things they know are wrong. I will say they are lousy liars.... :sneaky: Oh they lie, but if called out on it cannot hide that they are guilty as sin.
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I study on dog human interaction and why we became companion species i read about, it is partly due to dogs learning to mimic our behavior to gain favor and elicit sympathy or empathy. Their sad face, their happy face, their questioning face where they look at you, cock their head and prick up an ear................How many time do you hear people say about their dog. "he acts just like a human", this is in essence the dog has learned to do and is true so that the dogs survival is ensured.
 
toglhot said:
Fear of consequence, something today's kids don't know anything about. Us oldies grew up with it: Do something wrong and you got the hell beaten out of you. Never did me any harm,
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No i disagree. Violence does more harm than teach a lesson. The only lesson learned from violence is how not to induce that wrath that causes the violence.........the lesson learned from violence, (getting the hell beat out of you), to survive one learns to lie, sneaky behavior, and more than likely perpetuates the same violent behavior in the next generation or resentment when the rules have changed and that behavior is no longer acceptable..........
 
650Skull said:
No i disagree. Violence does more harm than teach a lesson. The only lesson learned from violence is how not to induce that wrath that causes the violence.........the lesson learned from violence, (getting the hell beat out of you), to survive one learns to lie, sneaky behavior, and more than likely perpetuates the same violent behavior in the next generation or resentment when the rules have changed and that behavior is no longer acceptable..........
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Well, we'll have to agree to disagree there. If there's one thing today's spoilt little brats need is a good kick up the bum! I was the recipient of many a good hiding from my folks, as were my brother and sister. We haven't grown into criminals, none of us have grown into child or wife abusers, none of us have ever been in trouble with the law. There is a difference between earned corporal punishment and abuse. My father dished out earned corporal punishment, my mother abuse, but, all that did was teach us not to follow in her footsteps. The punishment my father dished out taught us how to behave responsibly.
 
toglhot said:
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree there. If there's one thing today's spoilt little brats need is a good kick up the bum! I was the recipient of many a good hiding from my folks, as were my brother and sister. We haven't grown into criminals, none of us have grown into child or wife abusers, none of us have ever been in trouble with the law. There is a difference between earned corporal punishment and abuse. My father dished out earned corporal punishment, my mother abuse, but, all that did was teach us not to follow in her footsteps. The punishment my father dished out taught us how to behave responsibly.
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A spoilt brat, is the product of a parent spoiling a child, not the childs fault. Same a s a dog. If it is mishandled, or spoilt it becomes unruly or dangerous.
 
A spoilt brat is a child who gets whatever they want, including being able to do whatever they want. I agree it is the parents fault, without fear of consequence, there are no boundaries. Parents need to set boundaries, but how do you do that without fear of consequence???
One only has to watch today's kids in action!
 
There are entire um.. NGO's built on the premise that you are born an evil little bastard and have to be coerced and beat into goodness.
No doubt like humans, dogs are not born angels. They are social creatures and learn behavior acceptable to their "pack" or as we call it, family.
 
GLJ said:
Dogs put up with us for the same reason cats do. We are their meal ticket.
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Have to disagree Greg,

Yes we are their meal ticket from our point of view. From theirs we are their pack. There is a hierarchy and within that order their place changes with age, sex and personality. In a dog pack if a dog is bullied all the time and accepts its place it will never rise above that position. If on the other hand the dogs aggression out-ways the next in line above his status then he moves up in the pack standing.

A dog will always try out his/her master/human. As Gary said before.

"And that's the thing dogs ARE like humans they sometimes seem to be compelled do things they know are wrong"

Not that he knows its wrong the compulsion is to be top dog, except its not a direct challenge to our position but a challenge to certain rules, like my dog was never allowed on my bed. If i was away all day and didn't take the dog, (a very rare occurrence) i would find a dent on the bed where he had decided to exercise his challenge to my rule.

Wasn't allowed inside when i would go to some peoples place. He would lie in the doorway and have one paw over the door step. I allowed him to get that far so that was the line and every so often he would cross that line and i would have to remind him i was in charge.......Just an "outside"

They don't know any different than their pack/owner/master, what ever you call it, that is why a beaten dog will stay, you are the alfa and he/she has no concept of ownership just the pack and their place in it.
 
650Skull said:
Have to disagree Greg,

Yes we are their meal ticket from our point of view. From theirs we are their pack. There is a hierarchy and within that order their place changes with age, sex and personality. In a dog pack if a dog is bullied all the time and accepts its place it will never rise above that position. If on the other hand the dogs aggression out-ways the next in line above his status then he moves up in the pack standing.

A dog will always try out his/her master/human. As Gary said before.

"And that's the thing dogs ARE like humans they sometimes seem to be compelled do things they know are wrong"

Not that he knows its wrong the compulsion is to be top dog, except its not a direct challenge to our position but a challenge to certain rules, like my dog was never allowed on my bed. If i was away all day and didn't take the dog, (a very rare occurrence) i would find a dent on the bed where he had decided to exercise his challenge to my rule.

Wasn't allowed inside when i would go to some peoples place. He would lie in the doorway and have one paw over the door step. I allowed him to get that far so that was the line and every so often he would cross that line and i would have to remind him i was in charge.......Just an "outside"

They don't know any different than their pack/owner/master, what ever you call it, that is why a beaten dog will stay, you are the alfa and he/she has no concept of ownership just the pack and their place in it.
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I have to disagree with you on this. Quit feeding them and they will go where there is food. Survival is all animals #1 priority and that takes food.
My brother was a falconer. He had red tailed hawks. He had to weigh them before flying them. If they weighed to much it meant they were not hungry, they wouldn't hunt and stood a good chance of flying away. Weighed too little they would hunt and eat what they caught. Each bird had a correct flying weight range.
I asked him once what was the hardest part of training them. He said it was getting them to land on his gloved arm and not his head. There's a reason they wear a glove.
 
GLJ said:
Dogs put up with us for the same reason cats do. We are their meal ticket.
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That's a logic that, while technically true, doesn't tell the whole story.
Yes, we are their meal ticket, and if we starve them... yes, they'll look elsewhere.
By that same logic, our employer is our meal ticket. Don't feed (pay) us and we'll look elsewhere.
Just like that's not the sum of our existence and relationship with our employer, neither is it the sum of our dogs relationship and existence with us.
There's more to life than just existing... true for dogs and humans... we're both social creatures.
 
Dogs, like us, are very complex creatures, trying to explain a behaviour or set of behaviours in dogs, as well as us, with a simple logic doesn't tell the whole story. Science is still coming to terms with how little we actually know. I studied dog behaviour on basic course, then delved more deeply into it in advanced courses, read books and did external courses during my 25 years, as well as learned by observation. Unfortunately, no study or reading or observation,, regardless of depth, will ever uncover the dog's complex mind, intelligence or behaviour patterns. We can all kid ourselves that we know all due to the study, readings and observations we made, but that is a fallacy. We are simply selling our best friends short, what we are left with is trying not to be anthropomorphic and treating dogs in the manner they deserve - like dogs!
 
Dogs do have human attributes that have evolved so humans will bond with the dog. Its not a true symbiosis between dogs and humans but its close and we are learning just how close that is now we know that dogs can smell our diseases have evolved their eyes to elicit empathy from us use their left and right side of their brain to work out our emotions...............Initially after the dog first broke off from wolves, (and still is), they learned to trade with humans where they provide food and shelter and the dog provides protection and warnings so we both benefit. But they have also evolved, they can tell when we are happy or sad and even when we are sick and will comfort us, change our mood, lower our blood pressure. We have learned these things relatively of late, but they have been doing it for thousands of years where we, in our ignorance, and being the intelligent species we are, still treat dogs as if they are dogs and not a companion who understands far more than we know.

My dog, (He was a kelpie/Rockweiller X an intelligent dog that needed regular physical exercise and mental stimulation) ,used to talk to me literally. Not with human speech but how he used his bark or growl or a whine, within those 3 things there was a range of differences that if listed to would tell me something. he would convey when he was in pain. Different bark for friends and even differences between close friends, and of course for strangers and even a different bark again if that stranger was perceived as a threat.

Their personalities are complex, and as we have recently learned, and still are, their interconnection with humans is far more ingrained and coplex that we could have imagined. The average joe will say its just a dog and treat it as such, when, yes it is a dog but the average joe need to be schooled so the dog gets the life he deserves

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/dog-imitation-humans-canine-behavior-video_n_3653115
https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/behavior/its-not-your-imagination-dogs-do-mimic-their-owners/
https://www.bbc.com/news/education-48665618
https://www.scienceabc.com/nature/animals/how-do-dogs-sense-human-emotions.html
 
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yrs ago a mate had a dog that was born compleatly deaf , he and the dog worked out a lot of hand signles , trouble was if he want the dog to do something the dog didnt want to the dog would look away so he couldnt see him BUT you could see him trying to keep an eye on mick out of the cnr of his eye was funny as, mick would try creeping around to get in view while the dog would turn around as well to keep him out of sight , a farmer who i worked for had a blue healer who liked to nip people , the pickers hut was about 3 steps in the air so the healer would wait under the hut and get the pickers on the ankle on the way down the steps by getting them through the step openings , my last dog was a mental as blue healer cross kelpie , crazy as a cut snake , wasnt alowed inside the house as none of mine ever have , but would wait outside the door till i went outside to go up the shed then do a lightning raid into the house and grab the last thing i had touched .. ie .. tv remote / tobbaco pouch etc then back out side and then just drop it on the ground . was a hassle working on the car or bike , put down a spanner that would just dissapear , he would pick it up and walk away 10-20 ft and just drop it on the ground ,they are all different love them or hate them they definitly know how to work us humans out
 
In my former life, I was an USAF 1 & 2 engine Jet Aircraft Mechanic. '76-'96. Cold War warrior. OK before that I was an Okla Air National Guard weekend warrior working on F-100 D & F models that were as old as I was. 18 yrs old. June 1975 to July '76. After passing the bypass test at basic I was assigned to Nellis AFB at Las Vegas NV. Worked F-111A's. Viet Nam veteran fighters. About a year and the largest movement of aircraft in peacetime later we had different VN vets in the form of F-4D's. Did phased docks on them. Tear em down and inspect and repair and reassemble and test em. Greasy and sooty jets. A tour of RAF Lakenheath on F-111F's in a backshop setting was love - hate affair. Back to Nellis again to the same shop I left 2 yrs earlier. A year later our F-4D's were replaced brand new F-16A's. After some time I was told to go to the flightline and be a crew chief. Loved it. Went to Hahn AB Germany and did it for 5 yrs there. We were ther first to have them in Europe. BEST ASSIGMENT EVER on so many levels. Sent to Davis - Monthan AFB to work A-10A jets. My first subsonic aircraft. I still scratch my head over any logic in this. Retired after working them on flightline and phased docks in '96. Loved the area in Tucson so I stayed here ever since. I still miss being uniform but couldn't do it anymore at 65. The F-4's and the F-111's retired the same time I did in '96. I saw one of the F-16's I crewed in Germany in the boneyard here! It was like seeing an old friend after many years. It was a dirty, noisey sometimes thankless job, but I wouldn't trade it for anything.
 

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