A little help needed regarding wiring of the safety relay on '80 Special

All I know is on Madness (a high comp 750 if that makes a diff) the starter would wind up pretty high before kicking out when I removed the relay. Possibly a foible of that particular drive.
Thought that extra high RPM spin wouldn't be good for bearings or commutator so put it back in. I've never had the starter out of that bike. And a few times while working on carbs it got a lot of exercise.
It's helpful to look in the earlier manuals when Yamaha thought to explain why they incorporated features and design, operation principles , the later manuals started the trend towards "shut up and replace parts" type mechanic relations. A sad trend.
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I've got a more cynical take on it.
Yamaha saw the need to add an electric starter to their flagship 4 stroke. Honda by gawd has one, we need one too.... set aside the fact that Honda designed theirs in from day one. Not wanting to completely redesign the cases, they tucked it up under the engine. Now, the problem is there isn't room on the clutch side.... so lets mount the motor facing the wrong way... yeah, now it fits.... with the drive on the wrong left end.
No matter, we can still have the bendix engage the crank... 'cept the only way to put a gear on the crank is to cut it into one of the flywheel cheeks. It's gotta be the right one though or we'll need to move the alternator.
Well crap, now we need a gazillion little shaft's and gears to connect the starter output... which is on the wrong side, to the bendix... which is also on the wrong side.... what could possibly go wrong.... :doh:
So one of 'em goes to the boss and sez... "we can do it, but we just robbed a shitload of power off the starter from gearing and direction changes. What we need to do is decompress one of the cylinders to make sure we have enough power to actually start this thing."

So while the boss is doing a face palm over the absurdity of it all, one of the other engineers pipes up and says....
"We're also concerned that this overly complicated system could grenade on us due to the pent up nature of all the gear slop and direction changes and such. I think we need to put a relay in there that automatically kicks the starter out when the engine fires."

And so a monstrosity is born..... backwards, overly complicated... and noisy as fuck.... but sumbich if it didn't work just fine. So well in fact that the decompress feature was later deemed unnecessary.
The safety relay was never deemed unnecessary because marketing got wind of it..... this marvelous "safety feature"..... that nobody else had.
Did ya ever ask yourself why nobody else had one? :er:


3+ years now without it on my SG.... it doesn't need it.
 
Cuz their starters don't wind up to gazzilion RPM when the motor starts?
Remember the Chrysler gear reduction starters that were used for a gazillion years on everything they made from straight 6s to 440 ci V8s. Sounded like hell but would turn over anything and they held up well.
 
Cuz their starters don't wind up to gazzilion RPM when the motor starts?
Here's a question to ponder....
How many guys have took off down the road only to have the bike die on 'em 'cause the alternator died and the battery gave it's last gasp?
Of those people, how many noticed the starter didn't "automatically" kick out because the alternator died and took their "automatic starter disengage" bullshit with it?
Seems that the gazillion over-rev of the starter would be an audible que sumpin's up?
Or perhaps human reflexes really are good enough to let go the starter button and we never get the over-rev?
 
Here's a question to ponder....
How many guys have took off down the road only to have the bike die on 'em 'cause the alternator died and the battery gave it's last gasp?
Of those people, how many noticed the starter didn't "automatically" kick out because the alternator died and took their "automatic starter disengage" bullshit with it?
Seems that the gazillion over-rev of the starter would be an audible que sumpin's up?
Or perhaps human reflexes really are good enough to let go the starter button and we never get the over-rev?
If the last gear (bendix) is working ok the engine can not over rev the starter motor. The faster crank shaft wheel speed will unwind the starter gear from the crank gear. The starter will spin no faster than it's free running speed which will not hurt the starter motor.
 
If the last gear (bendix) is working ok the engine can not over rev the starter motor. The faster crank shaft wheel speed will unwind the starter gear from the crank gear. The starter will spin no faster than it's free running speed which will not hurt the starter motor.
"Zackly!!


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You got an old bike.....
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Not MY words...................
I report, you decide.
Finally getting some rain here.
Yamaha used a Bendix style starter gear. They didn't invent it. If one of their engineers thought that was was correct it went to print.
I have never seen a dc motor that would grenade running under no load which is what would happen when the gear disengaged.
I have seen dc armatures grenade when over driven. Think a normal one way clutch that was frozen.
 
Yamaha used a Bendix style starter gear. They didn't invent it. If one of their engineers thought that was was correct it went to print.
I have never seen a dc motor that would grenade running under no load which is what would happen when the gear disengaged.
I have seen dc armatures grenade when over driven. Think a normal one way clutch that was frozen.
I've also spun a starter motor on the bench for a good 10-15 sec with no ill effect. Prolly not good for it's overall longevity, but it'll rev-out and stay there with no problems at all.
 
I've also spun a starter motor on the bench for a good 10-15 sec with no ill effect. Prolly not good for it's overall longevity, but it'll rev-out and stay there with no problems at all.
I rebuilt thousands of automotive and industrial starters. Trust me they will not grenade running free.
 
Lol....apologies to the OP....us old farts are "bench racin".

Neither one of my XS's has the relay and neither use a button; one uses decomp. lever, one uses 3 pos. key-switch. If I'm not focused, I do get a little "run-on", but I don't think it's engaged: just spin'in a little extra.

Now I've jinxed myself.....
 
Dint mean to start a war just my experiences and predilections. Obviously many have deleted the relay. Most with no problem? Removed that relay years ago when redoing some wiring, did NOT like the starter over-run sound on MY BIKE and put it back in. Guess I'll pop open a connector and see what happens now.
Always nice to have a RANGE of opinions when making a choice.
Gotta go put a pizza in.
 
....one uses decomp. lever....
More cynicism follows....

Engineer #1: "Well, I think it'll be too weak. We need the decompression setup, but if we tie the starter circuit to the lever, as soon as the rider lets go, we'll get full compression at the same time the starter shuts off.... that ain't helpful. We want one cylinder decompressed 'till the other one catches real good."

Engineer #2: " I know, how about we kick the starter out while the rider is still holding the decompress lever?"

Engineer #1: "Brilliant!!.... wait what? How we gonna do that?"

Engineer #2: " Soon as the alternator kicks in the charge voltage energizes a relay that kills power to the starter solenoid. The rider's still holding the lever in.... voila. easier starts."

Engineer #1: " Brilliant!!"

Boss: :doh:

Marketing guy: "Well that sucks. We gotta tell customers to hold the decompress lever 'cause our weak assed starter will only start half a motor?"

Engineer #2: "just call it something special.... like... I don't know.... a safety relay. Tell 'em it's special 'cause no one else has one."

Marketing guy: "Brilliant!!"

2yrs later......

Boss: "Hey dipshits.... starter works just fine without the decompressor... get rid of it."

Engineer #1 "You want us to delete the relay too?"

Marketing guy: "Fuck no you ain't gettin' rid of that. It's special.... no one else has one."

Boss: :doh::banghead:
 
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