Aftermarket Oil Filter Question

dps650rider

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Anybody know if the aftermarket paper oil filters, such as the one Mike's carriers significantly reduces oil flow? Seems to me that they would be quite a bit more restrictive than the stock screen.
 
Mike's filter/cooler kit they sell has been in use a long time. If there were oil flow problems I think they would have shown up by now.
I agree they will have more resistance than the stock filters. Is it enough to matter? I can't say.
Leo
 
I use Mikes/Heiden oil filter/cooler. So far no difference in the bike. I don't think it cools the oil much, but I have peace of mind that there is a paper filter instead of a pebble catcher in the oil system.
 
I have one of the Mikes/Heiden/cooler's with about 20,000+ miles on it and no eng. problems as of yet ( and yes I change the oil and filter every 3-4k )
 
Anybody know if the aftermarket paper oil filters, such as the one Mike's carriers significantly reduces oil flow? Seems to me that they would be quite a bit more restrictive than the stock screen.

That paper oil filter is one of the best things you can do for your engine. It is not restrictive to oil flow. The pleated paper has a large surface area, and is of the same design as used in cars and trucks.That same filter is used in many motorcycles.

The stock wire screen stainer (its a strainer, not a filter) is only effective for large debris, which has some value but not much.
 
Thanks for the responses, I was hoping that possibly someone had quantified any differences in flow by measuring the oil pressure after the filter. I have used Mike's filter for several years on my bike but this spring I had a connecting rod big end bearing failure and would like to know why it failed. When I tore the engine down I also noticed that there was some galling on the small end bearing of one of the rods so I got thinking again about oil flow.
 
Been thinkin' about this, too. I believe we all could benefit from some kind of flowmeter. I had one in my SBC Vega. Used a small ball that would roll around in a toroidal trough, optical sensor would count its passing. Other types of flowmeters use vanes, propellers, eddy/flutter detectors, ...etc. At 1gpm @ 3000 rpm, there's plenty of flow to measure...
 
Thanks for the responses, I was hoping that possibly someone had quantified any differences in flow by measuring the oil pressure after the filter. I have used Mike's filter for several years on my bike but this spring I had a connecting rod big end bearing failure and would like to know why it failed. When I tore the engine down I also noticed that there was some galling on the small end bearing of one of the rods so I got thinking again about oil flow.

Oil pressure has no real meaning on these engines. IIRC Pamcopete had done some measurements................about 14 or 15 psi when engine first started (cold thick oil) and drops down to maybe 2 or 3 psi when the engine and oil are hot. The ball/roller bearings in these engines don't need much pressure, they just need oil flow.

Other motorcycles and cars/trucks use journal type babbit bearings that must have high pressure as the pressure forces the oil between the two metal surfaces.

There's a good chance your bearing failure was due to abuse by POs. POs have tortured these engines.................running with low oil levels, wrong type oil, gas contamination in the oil sump, etc.

With proper maintenance, these engines are almost unbreakable. I know its hard to believe :wink2:, but many engines just didn't get treated well.
 
Tru that RG. Both engines i got to build my new one, the rods were gone. Small ends were blue and had a ton of axial play...funny thing, cam and rockers were fine and pump. Looks like way to long oil change intervals and lots of hot.
 
Nicely explained RG. Then it all get's back to that abused, overheated, contaminated oil being pumped through a course filtering screen where the finer contaminants can pass and flow on to the crankshaft bearings.
 
Oil pressure has no real meaning on these engines. IIRC Pamcopete had done some measurements................about 14 or 15 psi when engine first started (cold thick oil) and drops down to maybe 2 or 3 psi when the engine and oil are hot. The ball/roller bearings in these engines don't need much pressure, they just need oil flow.

Agreed on that, but oil pressure after the filter could be used as a way to check for a change in flow caused by changing the filter type. Would need to be done with similar conditions (RPM, temperature, oil) for the results to be meaningful but it could be done.

There's a good chance your bearing failure was due to abuse by POs. POs have tortured these engines.................running with low oil levels, wrong type oil, gas contamination in the oil sump, etc.

This is a 1 owner bike (me) with 125,000 miles on it and I am no stranger to rebuilding it and maintaining it. The failure occurred at 39,000 miles after a rebuild/rephase/rebore/etc. and I was not expecting this kind of thing to happen.

So I am left with a few possibilities:

* Too much operation at excessively high RPM. I have always routinely run this bike to the redline but lately I have been suspecting that my tach reads low at high RPM.

* Debris from a failed valve seal damaged the big end bearing. I had 2 valve seals fail and I suspect this was caused by the a combination of a cam with a higher than stock lift, slightly heavier than stock rocker assemblies (elephant foot adjusters), stock valve springs (they measured in spec and the cam was supposed to be OK with stock springs) and high RPM.

* Aftermarket connecting rods, bearings and crank pins, possibly of lower quality? The right side rod had some galling on the small end, on the left side the crank pin had the bulk of the damage.

* Oiling problems.

*** First thing I checked and rebuilt was the oil pump. It wasn't that bad but while it is apart I replaced the outer rotor and set the clearance to I believe 0.0015".

*** When I tore it down I checked the oil passages, all seemed to be OK.

*** It occurred to me that the failure happened not too long after changing the oil and filter, and the new filter was a different brand. I have been buying filters from Mikes', previously they were made by MW, new ones were by EMGO.
 
In my opinion, these engines are not designed to routinely run up to the red line. I would consider that to be "racing" conditions. The fact that you got 39,000 miles using the engine in that manner, just shows how well designed these engines are.

Winding out the rpm to red line for 39,000 and then it broke down, would seem to me a normal expectation. You had some fun with the bike and now you have to pay the price of a re-build.

Anyone that races cars or bikes, fully expects a short life for the engine.

After market parts probably not up to OEM standards.

Perhaps your engine would have benefited from an oil cooler and a high volume oil pump.
 
Very hard to help out with a diagnosis without seeing the failure first hand but what comes to mind is crankshaft bearing quality of aftermarket bearings and the fact that I've been advised in the past to re-use original bearings when possible due to aftermarket not cutting it.
On that advise I replaced my failed crankshaft bearing with a complete 8000mile crankshaft and conrod assembly, a spin on sump filter and Heiden Tuning's paper filter/cooler in the RH case and a +50% oil pump from The Tired Kraut and if I run my engine cold or hot at idle with the valve covers off, I can see oil freely flowing at the top end.
Were all good investments IMO and make a good combination.
 
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Great thread. Hope you can figure out the failure mode and share results.

But how does a valve seal fail and put debris in the bottom? I've only seen them start leaking, not break apart - unless they were ancient and abused; does not sound like yours are in that mode. Were they cheapo valve seals? Maybe a materials problem, where the rubber gets hot, gets hard, and disintegrates? Don't take this wrong, I'm really curious. I have several older, retro bikes, and I also routinely take them to red line... Almost every freeway onramp, matter of fact :bike:...

Did you save the oil filter after the engine went? Would be interesting to confirm if it failed, dumping cr@p into the oil stream, then to the bearings.. Would not be the first time an Emgo product failed...

Not to hijack, but...this is germane; trust me :wink2:. A few years ago I had a rash of overflowing carbs on a couple retro naked (stripped of plastic) GL1200 Gold Wings - that I also routinely redline...:D Little bits of debris kept getting stuck under the needle valve, the bike would start misfiring and jerking, draining gasoline on my boots, and then onto the hot exhaust. . 1st time was in the middle of a 2000 mile road trip, broke down outside Durango, in the middle of fricken summer, with our dog in a side car; 2nd was in my driveway, and through a series of unfortunate simultaneous events :rolleyes:... the bike actually caught fire :yikes:. Then the rag I tried to put the fire out with, then my pants...:shrug:... but I digress. Note: this sounds funny now, but it was more... adrenaline filled at the time :er:

Turned out to be the glue in the Emgo filter was breaking down by the recent introduction of ethanol in our Tucson fuel, and tiny glue particles CAME OUT OF THE FILTER to lodge under the needle valve seat. Of course, it took me a couple more times of breaking down b4 I figured it out :doh:. Multiple phone calls to the distributor, emails, letters, not even a fricken response, let alone acknowledgement. A$$hats. To this day I will never buy another Emgo product. :mad: So instead of $8.95 Emgo filters, I buy Mother Honda $19.95 factory filters - really, really cheap insurance.

Now back to the original topic...

Re: Mikes vs; Yami bottom end bearings; I'm currently, and slowly... rebuilding my basket case. Just found (3) NOS bottom end bearings on ebay...:D About 50% more than Mikes, but I'll sleep better at night...

Did I ask if you saved your filter?:thumbsup:
 
I believe that the valve seals failed when the valves floated and the keeper hit the valve seals. When the valves are fully opened there is not much clearance, this time I put in heavier valve springs. For the cam I have stock springs are supposed to be OK but heavier ones are recommended.

When I rebuilt it 6 years ago I used crank bearings and rod kits from Mike's. At the time the crank bearings were made by Koyo, the original manufacturer for the bearings. Anyway these are still fine and were reused. The rods were again replaced with performance rods from Mike's. Would have liked to go OEM but couldn't find any.

Question: What model Honda is the oil filter element from that fits Mike's oil filter/cooler setup?
 
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