Alto 8 plate clutch hitting cover

[Fingerscrossed]

Hi all,

I just installed the 8 alto friction plates (thanks gggGary!!), but now the clutch is hitting the cover when the clutch lever is pulled.

I’ve been through my clutch many times, so all the washers are in the right order and the dots are aligned. I had 7 plates in there before with new springs, but would get clutch slip when going up a steep hill in 1st gear… The steel plates all measure 1.4mm, and the friction plates 2.5mm.

I started it up and heard the clutch noise. I've since dumped the oil and been testing it by using metal polish on the outside clutch to see if it's rubbing off in the inside of the case. It still is after pulling it all apart and putting it back together. I'm going to try the old actuator arm - I was just testing the clutch, and the clutch cable pulled out from the actuator... It's one of the new ones with the fold-down tab, which was folded down. I'll also try a different pushrod since I have it. I could try the original springs - I currently have the longer XS performance springs in there. It doesn't look like the basket is being pressed out evenly, so maybe it's a spring binding, but I thought that would have the opposite effect.

I've attached some photos in case something looks off to someone, + a photo of the bike in question. Is the clutch hub supposed to sit like that on the shaft? I've also replaced the cush springs with the kit - the bolts were scraping on the cases, but that's fixed now, checked with a basket spin test. It's a 256 basket; everything else is from a 75' 447 clutch. My understanding is that all baskets are the same. The plates look like they're sitting right, they're not proud, and there's free play in the clutch lever. If anyone has any ideas, please let me know!

 

[Signal]

I would be looking to see why the hub and the shaft are not aligned. Photo 1164
You may find that using a combo of spring rates is needed so that the clutch boss lifts off evenly. If you have too much travel on the clutch release the boss will hit the outer cover.
Does your hub have the first steel retained by a wire ? that may explain your problem but not the shaft misalign.

 

[Fingerscrossed]

So the hub should be flush with the shaft?

The only cause I can think of is if I didn't rebuild the basket correctly, causing the basket to be thicker and pushing the hub forward. I rebuilt the basket again after it scraped the case, can't think of how it would go together improperly.

There's no retainer wire. I can adjust the clutch to have more free play, but if that's not how the hub is supposed to sit, I should figure that out.

edit: Just looking at this video, the hub seems to sit the same as mine

 

[Wingedwheel]

Did you line up the “dot and dimple” when you installed the new plates?

 

[Fingerscrossed]

Yes they are aligned

 

[Signal]

Have a look in the tech section .
https://www.xs650.com/threads/xs650-clutch.143/page-3
Post #48 has a colour version showing the washers stack up.

If the clutch hub was out by that much I doubt the steel plate that holds the springs in would be fitting properly.

 

[Fingerscrossed]

Yeah, the washers are in the right order. I agree, I'll do some more testing!

 

[Wingedwheel]

I know sometimes it’s easy for that bearing (circled red) to be misaligned. That can hold you out.

 

[Fingerscrossed]

Yeah that’s correct, I have the new thrust washer type too. I’ve remeasured everything and all seems ok…

I’m just going to put some oil in, start it up and try adjusting the clutch, see if I can get it working without hitting the cover.

Otherwise I’ll just put the old plates back in, the slipping wasn’t so bad, but a bit annoying. Not sure what to try otherwise

 

[Wingedwheel]

I kinda have to agree with @Signal. I’m pretty sure that clutch basket needs to be flush. Looking at the marks on it in your pic would lead me to believe that.

 

[Fingerscrossed]

If that could be confirmed, that would be great.

If I remove the 2mm washer from behind the hub, the hub scrapes against the basket. I don’t think there is any other way to increase the length of the shaft unless you removed the 1mm or 2mm washers behind the basket which wouldn’t work either.

I’ve found a few other clutch rebuild pics and videos that have the same amount of shaft showings as mine

 

[Wingedwheel]

I will admit I haven’t done the 8plate, just upgraded from 6 to 7 plates and had no issues.

 

[Fingerscrossed]

I’ve just tried adjusting it while running but it either stalls or hits the cover. Weird thing is, it’ll stall and lurch forward when running but when engine off I can push it forward with the clutch in easily.

I’ve just gone back to the stock 7 plates and it’s doing the same thing haha… I can push it forward with the clutch in but it’ll stall when running.

There’s heaps of clutch plate separation, if I push it with the RH cover off it’s fine, any ideas why it would be stalling when running?

 

[Miker Vee]

My guess:
If you pull the lever, the clutch plates separate and the transmission + rear wheel are running free.
However, the clutch pressure plate, which is connected to the basket, is pressed against the engine cover.
That part is driven by the crankshaft, so the engine stalls.
But the wheel moves freely.

 

[Wingedwheel]

If it’s doing it with the 7 plates also then you don’t have that basket in far enough.

 

[gggGary]

Missed this thread while on a short trip.
I'll kind of scatter gun here.
Hate to ask, but.....
Is the clutch push rod installed with the small end out at the worm gear?
You might want to look, compare your parts with the ones in this post:
https://www.xs650.com/threads/interest-in-8-plate-clutch-conversions.56486/page-11#post-821263
I might want to make sure all basket parts are a matched set, not mixing and matching from various years. What bolts are you using? Replacement allen head bolts tend to stand a bit taller.
Have you been able to run it with the parts you have now? IE are you getting clutch, will the engine connect to the drivetrain and move the bike?

 

[Fingerscrossed]

Thanks guys! Yeah it’s doing it with 7 plates while it definitely isn’t hitting the cover so don’t think it’s the pressure against the cover causing it to stall.

Yes small end is in the worm gear. I had a one piece pushrod in there when it was working but thought I would swap in a two piece. I have the right ball bearings in there but may as well try swapping it back.

It’s been running ok but I’ve had trouble shifting, like the clutch isn’t fully disengaging when it’s warm (after adjusting it on the perch while riding). And the clutch was slipping in 1st up steep hills, so that’s why I thought I would try the 8 plates.

I can roll it forwards in first gear with the clutch in but it stalls and lurches when it’s running. It started doing that when I put in the 8 plates and then it still did it after changing back to 7. The only other things I changed were the actuator and pushrod so I’ll double check those.

The basket is a 256 whereas the rest of the clutch is from a 447. The basket parts are from the same year though, and I’ve rebuilt that with new cush springs. I have the Allen bolts and longer XS performance springs. It’s not the Allen heads hitting the cover, I’ve tested it by applying oil to the clutch to see where it’s rubbing.

I’m going to be away from the bike for a few weeks, so I’m tempted to order a clutch from eBay to test when I get back. I’m more than aware that throwing money at these things doesn’t help… I’ll also check there’s no warping in the steel plates.

 

[gggGary]

Have you replaced the clutch cable? a binding cable can do quite a bit of what you describe.
Everything OK up at the perch handle? Pivot bolt not worn out, handle hole not all worn out?

 

[Fingerscrossed]

Yes I replaced the cable a year or so ago, I will add some lubricant and check for binding, good idea.

Perch handle is ok, it’s an aftermarket one from GeoffsXS without the mirror mount.

A question - does this line on the basket need to align with anything? I noticed the alto plates have similar lines but I didn’t line them up.

 

[gggGary]

No orientation needed on any of the plates.