An Adventure in Firsts: '83 XS650 Heritage Special Build/Rebuild

Your hard starting issue could be related to your ill-fitting and loose plug caps. You might be intermittently losing the connection, and hence, spark on that cylinder.
Agreed. I was thinking the wires or a new cap was needed, good to know I can take that nut off. I thought about it trying that the other day but didn't want to get impulsive. Thanks!
On to that and rotor cleaning now.
Picked these up for it:
IMG_1489.jpeg

(Hopefully cleaning with rotor on is okay as I don't have a rotor puller as of now). Left the battery off the charge last night too to see how much it drops, so we'll see.

Thanks for the TCI/cap info @Jim @650Skull . Sounds like, unless I find I do have charging system issues, I should wait to do that full swap later--if I end up committing to that idea for the build. I want to look into whether that setup would present problems for long distance rides and any other pro/cons. So note to self, to switch to kick only and small batt or cap setup, I'd at least need to switch to PMA and new ignition as well.
 
Dang , your description reminded me of this good looker! IDK if you've seen this one?
View attachment 177634
Cool to hear that you are considering using that kicker! Kick starting these XS's is part of the enjoyment. And a good health habit for your bike too if your kicker is still in good working order. My kickerknee was bout destroyed years ago, rebuilt and eternal trouble but I'd never give up kicking up my own XS
;)
I have not seen that one! Quite the looker. I would looove to do a hardtail--would actually make certain things for this build easier too--but I've been talked out of it being a wise choice for a daily rider in LA, let alone longer trips.
And yes, I'm a sucker for the kickstart!
 
Thanks for the TCI/cap info @Jim @650Skull . Sounds like, unless I find I do have charging system issues, I should wait to do that full swap later--if I end up committing to that idea for the build. I want to look into whether that setup would present problems for long distance rides and any other pro/cons. So note to self, to switch to kick only and small batt or cap setup, I'd at least need to switch to PMA and new ignition as well.
First... that CRC elec cleaner is my go to... it's good stuff.
The original charging system is extremely reliable once you get it properly sorted. Get a new set of brushes, rewind the rotor if needed. The stator is bullet proof... rarely fails. There's a low cost upgrade for the reg/rec... this thread covers that. Once that's all done, it's a no fuss system that will likely last another 40 yrs with nothing more than the occasional brush replacement. I've honestly never understood the allure of PMA's... especially considering the cost. :yikes:
The TCI iggy is another system that just plain works. The only weak point to it is the electrics box. And "weak point" is relative. Yours is likely 40yrs old and it still works. What's not to like? They are at the end of their life though... and rare as hens teeth to find. But there is a low cost replacement for the TCI box. Have a read here. It's a $20 Suzuki box that I'm currently running in my 80SG. At that price, you can afford to keep a couple of spares.
The point is there's plenty of low cost ways to keep these bikes reliable and running forever without throwing 5-600 bucks at the charging and iggy system. If you want to delete the starter to save weight, you could go to a small lightweight battery instead of the capacitor. Would be more reliable. I understand the charm (macho...ism? :rolleyes:) of kick starting, but just speaking for myself.. when it stalls at a busy intersection, I like the push button option. :D
 
First... that CRC elec cleaner is my go to... it's good stuff.
The original charging system is extremely reliable once you get it properly sorted. Get a new set of brushes, rewind the rotor if needed. The stator is bullet proof... rarely fails. There's a low cost upgrade for the reg/rec... this thread covers that. Once that's all done, it's a no fuss system that will likely last another 40 yrs with nothing more than the occasional brush replacement. I've honestly never understood the allure of PMA's... especially considering the cost. :yikes:
The TCI iggy is another system that just plain works. The only weak point to it is the electrics box. And "weak point" is relative. Yours is likely 40yrs old and it still works. What's not to like? They are at the end of their life though... and rare as hens teeth to find. But there is a low cost replacement for the TCI box. Have a read here. It's a $20 Suzuki box that I'm currently running in my 80SG. At that price, you can afford to keep a couple of spares.
The point is there's plenty of low cost ways to keep these bikes reliable and running forever without throwing 5-600 bucks at the charging and iggy system. If you want to delete the starter to save weight, you could go to a small lightweight battery instead of the capacitor. Would be more reliable. I understand the charm (macho...ism? :rolleyes:) of kick starting, but just speaking for myself.. when it stalls at a busy intersection, I like the push button option. :D
Should have added... far be it for me to tell you what to do with your bike. I'm just trying to show you there's options. Cheers.
 
Some good news and some not great news.
First, the not so great news. The pushrod won't go back in as far as it normally does. I saw that but, getting a touch impulsive, went to put the cover screws back on slowly to see if it'd get the rod to sit back in properly. I didn't force it per se, I was able to get the cover screwed back on just moving slowly with screws and not even with extra effort, but I had a feeling the rod didn't go back down, especially when putting the shifter back on was requiring more effort. I pulled in the clutch lever and it wouldn't move at all. I took the cover and shifter back off, not wanting to force rod or damage things. It had not gone back in at all. So that's where that got left last night as it got dark. Going to look up how to deal with that now.

Second piece of not so great news is I took another look at that wire running to the stator that appeared damaged. It certainly is. Looks either torn or melted. Still can't see interior wires in it coming out, or any visible, but there's definitely a hole in it. Going to look up part info on that now too.
IMG_1493.jpeg

^When I move that little melted piece to the side, there's a hole.

In other news, left battery off the tender for a night, read 12.6V with bike off. Removed the terminal nut from spark plug, caps fit on as they should! Allllmost turned over on the very first electric start attempt. Started on the second attempt. So, so far seems like the spark plugs situation was definitely making the cold start more difficult. Battery read 12.4V at idle then, which if I remember correctly is on the low side. Still thinking a new battery is in order to eliminate that being an issue at all.
Oh, and cleaned the rotor!
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And below here's a better shot of that "film" I was talking about...you can see it cracked off a bit. (more pics in thumbnails)
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Also, wasn't able to get a stable OHM reading from putting leads together on meter--which from my understanding I need to get and then deduct from ring reading--but I did get 4.7 reading placing each lead on a track, but that's without that deduction. Going to look into meter use more now too in case I'm buggering that up somewhere.
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Should have added... far be it for me to tell you what to do with your bike. I'm just trying to show you there's options. Cheers.
Didn't take it as you telling what to do at all, I appreciate you presenting the alternatives because, while I know quite clearly what I want aesthetically (save a few I keep waffling on), for quite a few of those modifications I'm still figuring out how and IF I can execute it considering the overall system of the bike's mechanics and electrics--and figuring out what I need to learn to answer that, or even get at the right question haha. (I realize some people may think it's insane, or annoying, for someone of my knowledge level to think they can start modifying a bike when they are just understanding how a standard bike works, but I like big tasks and making things and doing this will require me to learn and understand all those things on the way, not to mention I have the added fact (ahem, stress) that I need to as it's my transportation).

As for creating negative space and reducing weight: I'm basically hoping to delete or make tiny anything behind the carburetors (so between carbs and rear wheel I want as much negative space as possible), and then just any weight in general. So that means, air filter (switch to pods? think I heard a rumble or two that they're not great for these, or perhaps it's just that you have to get the tuning or jetting just right); starter (though this isn't technically in that area, it'd reduce weight), reg/rec, smallest battery possible...
(want everything on the bars as simplified and torn down as possible too, none of the big clunky pieces)

Overall, as for electrical system goals:
(disclaimer: I can't talk about this much yet, as I haven't learned much of the basics of the electrical system yet, but I need to consider it as much as I can at the moment because I need a new battery asap, and I'd rather not buy one now and another type later cuz $... Trying to do too much at once over here I think)

--CHARGING system: I'm fine keeping the original charging system if I can make it reliable as Jim said--and yes, espeeeeecially considering cost of the switch--as long as I can still delete or shrink enough with it in. So going off what you're saying Jim, a small battery sounds smarter for me than a capacitor, especially if it'd be more reliable. @Jim do you think I could get away with a tiny battery before or without moving to kick only? I guess considering my immediate need for a battery, I'm thinking smartest is to get smallest I can that will work with existing electric start system etc--I should just answer my own question now and look into what parameters that means the battery needs to fall into and finish reading Jim's post on charging for dummies. (I've heard lithium batteries are great, small, and light--but they are $ and require different external chargers that need balancing from time to time; charging system has to charge between 13.4 & 14.6 or it won't charge it, which shouldn't be an issue if my system is in order. Heard EarthX 12a is one... )
--in the LIGHTING department, I will be running: headlight, taillight, and blinkers; (as much as I'd like to get rid of indicators, this is a daily LA rider and I also don't want to give the cops a reason to talk to me). Switching out indicators (front/back) and taillight (both location and type). From what I understand LED seems smartest per efficiency due to requiring less power and they are often bright as hell.
--As for STARTING, yes I do love the kickstart (for me it's about feeling like you're a piece in the machinery--well, that and creating an explosion), and yes getting stalled at an intersection when you have things on your back and hardly anywhere to move stinks--had to deal with that on my last bike. But to me it's worth it for above reason AND if it removes a good amount of bulk (both weight and actual space). Point being, if I can keep it and still cut enough weight and make enough negative space, I'm not necessarily against it as it would be nice for emergencies, rush situations, the many times I need to start it to work on it, and it'd eliminate the human error variable at least in that department. But I also like the idea of keeping the electric as simple as possible
--IGNITION: I don't understand yet what moving to kick only would mean for the TCI, or if this is an area where I can/want to delete things, because I haven't been able to look into how TCI functions yet. I know the unit is located in the area I want to clear out, but I can tuck it by the battery I imagine; seems ignition includes just the TCI unit (which I haven't physically looked at yet), fuses, pick up coil, and some switches n relays. Clearly the kick works with TCI.

Off to read about fixing this pushrod, stator wire, and battery/charging rules...
 

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Didn't take it as you telling what to do at all, I appreciate.....
Glad you took it as intended. :)
I'll try and go down your list here....
The pushrod won't go back in as far as it normally does.
I hope someone else will chime in here. I've never heard of one not going back in. I'm at a loss.
Second piece of not so great news is I took another look at that wire running to the stator that appeared damaged. It certainly is. Looks either torn or melted.
Yeah... looks torn and melted. And that's just the sheath... the wires are inside. You'll need to (carefully) cut just enough of that out of the way so you can determine whether or not the wires inside are damaged. And I'll emphasize carefully, you don't want to damage the wires inside any more than they might already be. Hopefully they're still OK. Let us know what you find and we can go from there.
In other news, left battery off the tender for a night, read 12.6V with bike off. Removed the terminal nut from spark plug, caps fit on as they should! Allllmost turned over on the very first electric start attempt. Started on the second attempt. So, so far seems like the spark plugs situation was definitely making the cold start more difficult. Battery read 12.4V at idle then, which if I remember correctly is on the low side. Still thinking a new battery is in order to eliminate that being an issue at all.
If the batt. started the bike after sitting overnight, it might be OK. Try this;
1. start the bike so the headlight comes on.
2. Kill the engine with the kill switch. Leave the kill switch off and the key on (so the headlight stays on and the ignition don't)
3. Measure and record batt. voltage.
4. leave it be for 30 min and measure the batt voltage again.
This is a poor mans load test :rolleyes: A good batt will only lose about 1 to 1.5 volts in that 30 min. As an alternative, just take the batt to an auto parts store and have them load test it for you. They do it for free.
Also, wasn't able to get a stable OHM reading from putting leads together on meter--which from my understanding I need to get and then deduct from ring reading--but I did get 4.7 reading placing each lead on a track, but that's without that deduction.

That's a rewound rotor (ahem... not by me. Mine ain't that sloppy;)) If they used 20 ga wire... and I suspect they did, 4.2 to 4.8 is about right. Run it as long as it lasts.... it's OK.
Pod filter are OK, just don't use the K&N style pleated ones. Hopefully someone will speak up on the best choice there.

You're learning. Keep going. :D
 
Side note: here's a pic of pushrod. There's hard residue of some kind on it, slightly raised up to touch--something okay to clean with mineral spirits or something to replace?
IMG_1491.jpeg


As usual @Jim , you're the best, thank you. On to load test and wire surgery now.
Run it as long as it lasts.... it's OK.
So I don't need to get a baseline reading of leads to deduct from that 4.7?
 
Properly installed and at the right depth, your pushrod should stick out about 48 to 50mm. Oh, and this is what a pushrod seal looks like without all that goop all over it, lol .....

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Your low 12's voltage at idle is probably fine. Both of mine often fall into the high 11's at idle with all the lights on. As long as that goes up and peaks in the mid 14's at most when revved, I'd say your charging system is working fine.
 
Hi
Have not read lately so apologize if this is solved.
Pushrod
That one goes in and out .So it can be pulled out slightly before installation of the side cover.
Dont pull it to far oil might come out ca 3- 5 mm ---1/5 inch
If you do that you are able to check that the rod actually enters the right place .
In the cover ( Where the bearing ball is )
You can look in the gap between engine and cover -- flashlight perhaps needed
and when the rod is at the right place
then push the cover in place tightening the cover bolts
Lightly by hand --first to close the gap.
 
So I don't need to get a baseline reading of leads to deduct from that 4.7?
Yeah.... you should. Typically you'll see about .1 to .3 Ω's resistance when it's zeroed (touching the leads together). So, even if we say... 0.3Ω and deduct that, you'll still be at 4.4Ω's which is acceptable for that rewind. Try crossing the tips across each other and pinching them together between your thumb and fingers. Hold it for a few seconds to stabilize and see what you get.

zzx.jpg
 
Properly installed and at the right depth, your pushrod should stick out about 48 to 50mm. Oh, and this is what a pushrod seal looks like without all that goop all over it, lol .....
Welp, this is strange. Measures a little shy of 2in, so about 49-50ish mm. Cover went on okay just placing it this afternoon so I figured I was seeing/feeling things that weren't real last night, but then just now it didn't seem to fit on right again--it's acting like a seesaw around the pushrod area, not going flush on right or left at the same time. It has been getting dark both times I've had problems so I'm just going to have to look at it again tomorrow. @Jan_P Yeah I can see rod is going in the right place, that doesn't seem to be the issue.
ry crossing the tips across each other and pinching them together between your thumb and fingers. Hold it for a few seconds to stabilize and see what you get.
That's the weird thing--I can't get a stable reading crossing the wires, that's why I haven't deducted. Sometimes it's 0, other times it's .7, then it's .4 to .3 to .2 to .1...and so on. Whichever number does show, it never stays on screen. I have it set to the OHM setting...all I can think of is there's some special trick with this meter I haven't realized.

Load test was good! 12.4V after killing it. 12.03V 30 minutes later (key still "on" with this reading; 12.3 with key off). Surprising...

Stator wire exam
I couldn't get too close or pull it apart too much without taking off the chain--which I was running out of time to do cuz it was dark and haven't done that before. I'll get at it tomorrow. I did however rig up a thing to move chain enough and peel back hosing a bit carefully to get to this:
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(More pics in thumbnail gallery). From what I can see, inside the outer rubber housing there's (at least) 3 rope like wires and at least one of those is showing fraying, or at least it's worn to the inside (the silver bits)
 

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Been there :(
Don't let that get you down. Isolate the wires and fix it.
It will still charge up just fine :)
 

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That's the weird thing--I can't get a stable reading crossing the wires, that's why I haven't deducted. Sometimes it's 0, other times it's .7, then it's .4 to .3 to .2 to .1...and so on. Whichever number does show, it never stays on screen. I have it set to the OHM setting...all I can think of is there's some special trick with this meter I haven't realized.
No special trick. Set the meter to OHMS, touch the tips together and within a few seconds it should stabilize at it's "zero set." If it's a new meter, I'd take it back and ask for a new one.
Load test was good! 12.4V after killing it. 12.03V 30 minutes later (key still "on" with this reading; 12.3 with key off). Surprising...
Yes, provided you verified the headlight was actually on, that indicates a battery that still has life left in it. It's not 100% certain, but a pretty good indicator it's OK. Keep it and use it 'till you decide which way you're going with your new one.
From what I can see, inside the outer rubber housing there's (at least) 3 rope like wires and at least one of those is showing fraying, or at least it's worn to the inside (the silver bits)
Yes, the "rope like" is a braided fiberglass insulation. You've got some broken strands in there. You'll need to inspect closely and see how bad it is... and how many wires. These stators are really overbuilt, with much larger gauge wires than needed for the current they carry. Even up to 50% of the strands broke is fixable by just re-insulating it. Any more than that and I'd flow some solder into it to restore its integrity. I like using heat shrink to re-insulate, but Machine's suggestion above is probably the easier option. Get it opened up so we can see how many wires are damaged and how bad, and go from there.
 
Side cover not going on fully, held out by clutch pushrod?

Just wonderin' - is that because the clutch actuator worm is too far in? The worm is the bit in the cover that holds the ball bearing. Slacken the adjustment so the worm can move further out and the cover ought to go right on properly. In fact, you could loosen the cable off fully at the bar and take it out of the clutch lever. Install the side cover, then reset the clutch adjustment.
 
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Quick update: Stalled on looking at wire cuz stalled on getting the chain off at the moment. Got the little clip off the master link but I don’t have a chain breaker tool to get it apart now and once again it’ll be dark by the time I find and purchase one. :( Only toolless method I saw online so far was going at it with a mallet on the same side the clip was removed from—but that doesn’t seem wise or even like it’d work judging from what I’m looking at.
Working on pushrod/side cover now
 
Got the little clip off the master link but I don’t have a chain breaker tool to get it apart
If there was a clip on it, it doesn't require a breaker. Pull the side plate directly under the clip off and push the link out the other side. All you need is your hands and a little fiddling with it.
 
Hmm Okay I’ll try again just didn’t want to go hard On it ... I don’t see this sliding anywhere
 

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Some of the side plates do resist just being pulled off easily. Its tempting to start prying with a screwdriver etc. But I'd still be more inclined to drive the pins with a SOFT punch such as aluminum or brass. You don't want to flare the ends or they will resist even more.
 
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