And for my next trick ....

nighthog

A bit of a bike hacker
Top Contributor
Messages
423
Reaction score
1,614
Points
143
Location
Chippenham, Wiltshire, UK
.... I will attempt to fix the dragging clutch + stiff gearchange + impossibility of finding neutral while stationary (and bloody difficult enough while moving) while simultaneously changing the oil, fitting a Heiden Tuning sump filter, and tidying up a couple of other odds and sods. With a triple somersault, backflip and finish in the piked position.

OK, maybe not the last bit. And I will NOT be wearing a leotard.

20180525_175928.jpg


I've spent a lot of time reading various threads (thanks, everyone. I really appreciate the knowledge you share) and trying to distil things down to what I actually need to do, given that I've already cleaned and greased the worm and fitted a new, well-lubed clutch cable so I figure that end of things is OK. So I'll start getting my hands dirty tomorrow after a few domestic duties are out of the way ... wish me luck ....
 
Remember to give those friction plates a damn good soak in oil overnight. You need to orientate them somehow to allow the oil to get to the friction material e.g. stack them with a nail between each plate. Regarding the difficulty in getting neutral, with a cold engine get rid of all slack in the clutch cable and the worm adjuster i.e. tighten but do not back the adjuster off 1/8 turn. Also leave no free play at the clutch handle/perch. You will be surprised just how much free play will develop in a matter of minutes after starting the engine. This all seems contrary to the manuals but it will make selecting neutral easy and will not result in clutch slip. The hotter the engine the harder it is to select neutral due to expansion putting too much slack in the clutch system.

You may have read about putting Lithium grease on the friction plates?? I do not know what the consensus is on this, perhaps someone has an update about this procedure???

Edit 16/02/22: Did I write this???? :umm: I always slackened off the worm adjuster 1/8" rather than 1/4".
 
Last edited:
My immediate thought was of the oil washing the grease but the plates do not separate much so the washing is probably minimal. I hope someone comments on their experiences with Lithium grease because it sounded very promising.
 
when you remove the clutch rod bush I found it easiest to remove it with the point of a flat wood bit. :thumbsup:

The bush is a spring steel bush with a longitudinal expansion split . if you drive the point of the drill bit behind one side of the split in the bush it will bend into the middle of the shaft and you can then pull it out with some needle nose pliers. Saves all that drilling and swarf etc .;)
 
looks like you've got some work to do over the W/E ;)

Hope you get it back together in time for a ride cos next week is nothing but rain :(
 
Seems to me that putting grease on clutch plates is inviting too much slip. When I was young I added a bit of STP to the oil in my GS1100 Suzuki (not thinking about a wet clutch) and it slipped so bad that several oil changes didn't recover it. I had to pull it apart and bathe the plates in gasoline to get it all out. I would think grease would create a like problem, after all, it's just helping the clutch slip more for less drag.
 
Some things amaze me. I started by draining the oil after a bit of warming for 5 or 10 mins. This won't take long I thought, but shall we just say that the PO wasn't exactly mechanically empathetic. To get the sump plugs out I had to use a breaker bar with a LOT of effort - for one plug, the bar was bending close to failing, but I managed to shift that little bugger by keeping the breaker bar bending while smiting the socket with a hammer. If finally moved. And of course, the sump filter was torn:
20180526_142803.jpg
Good job I have a Heiden Tuning upgrade to replace it.

Well, I now have the clutch stripped and I knew someone had been in before as soon as I took the outer cover off - the marks from removing an old gasket were clear. And yes, 2M, I've paid close attention to your writings on this subject so sourced a NOS stopper plate from the US as one of my lines of attack.
The spring bolts were in surprisingly good condition and I was able to shift them all just by using the correct sized JIS screwdriver, no need for an impact driver. The old springs have blue paint down one side - dunno what this signifies, spring rate perhaps?
20180527_184221.jpg
Pulling the plates out it looks like the PO did a clutch refurb not that long ago:
20180527_184221.jpg20180527_185136.jpg
Think I may have messed up the attachments so apologies and I'll continue in a moment ........
 

Attachments

  • 20180527_185051.jpg
    20180527_185051.jpg
    143.2 KB · Views: 256
Ah, one duplicated and one as an attachment!
Anyway, the clutch drum looks pretty good and the doodah that moves the star wheel looks central, and no, a 1/8" drill bit doesn't fit in the gaps, it's too big.
20180527_191358.jpg
Edit - just realised I need to measure this when in gear and not neutral. Damn.

So, all looking pretty good so the problem must either lie with the clutch pushrod (I have the one-piece replacement), the axial needle roller (I have the upgraded replacement) or the shit drum stopper plate. Here are the pics of old and new together.
20180527_192948.jpg 20180527_193009.jpg 20180527_193124.jpg 20180527_193152.jpg

So, virtually no discernible wear and nothing that could be felt using the British Standard Fingernail test. I put the new one on anyway, seemed daft not to after getting to this point and I'll have the comfort of knowing I have a spare in extremely good condition!

The pushrod bush was sloppy and the seal questionable so I've replaced them. New clutch plates are soaking and I think I'll take a punt on the lithium grease trick when I put it all back together. Hopefully I'll get it completed tomorrow. Then we'll see if all of this has made any difference. I'll be feeling somewhat deflated if it hasn't!
 
Last edited:
Nighthog, good pics of your shiftdrum stopper plate.
Here's a composite, showing yours (top) compared to my old one (bot).
ShiftDrumStopper-Nighthog.jpg

That side is the one that gets the scraping load when shifting from 1st to neutral.

Although yours doesn't show much wear, the wear/contact edge seems remarkedly narrow compared to mine. May want to check its depth into the shiftdrum groove. It needs to set as deeply as possible, without dragging on the (5) shift pins. There's very little adjustment for that, just from what little slop there is with its mount screws.

You have the later 2-piece shiftdrum. The outer part with the shiftpins should be removable, for inspection and such. Mine's a 1-piece, and I would have to do a bottom end disassembly to get the shiftdrum out, to inspect and polish its stopper groove.

Something to consider...
 
Well, some improvement but far from the transformation I was hoping for.
Summary of the changes: One-piece clutch pushrod + replaced bush and seal. New axial bearing + thrust washer behind the clutch drum, new friction plates with the lithium grease trick, new springs, new semi-synthetic 20W50 oil. Careful dressing with a needle file of the faces on the hub and drum, which weren't bad to start with. New shift drum stopper plate, carefully fiddled with to be as much in the groove as possible. Some swearing. Not that that's a change.

Verdict? Shifting on the move is definitely better and finding neutral while coming to a halt is now reasonably easy from 2nd, tricky from 1st. At a halt, I can tap down from 2nd but still very difficult from 1st. Paul Sutton is right about the free play that appears by magic as the motor comes up to full working temperature, and adjusting at the bar again when hot helped a wee bit.

I still don't feel I've found a smoking gun. I gave up trying to adjust the clearance around the star wheel as I simply couldn't find a way to slacken the adjuster's locknut. And yes, I did notice the lock tab! I think more stuff needs to be dismantled to be able to pull the lever mechanism out enough to get a spanner on, and as I'd just refitted the chain and sprocket after replacing the clutch pushrod bush and seal, I really didn't feel like taking all that apart again! There is a small difference to be adjusted out, but enough to make the difference? I doubt it.

20180528_104440.jpg

Next? I feel a set of steel plates coming on. I'm not convinced the current ones are true after an admittedly inconclusive sheet-of-glass-and-2-thou-feeler-guage attempt to measure warp. Then when I open up again I can fix my blunder where I've managed to dislodge something in the kickstart mechanism, probably when faffing about putting the cover back on, so the damned thing doesn't return. Bah.

On the good side, what a pleasure to go for a ride and not fear coming to a halt. Bimbling around on a lovely warm afternoon was lovely, especially as I've softened the suspension and it no longer feels like riding a pneumatic drill! There's room for improvement (always will be, I guess) but riding is definitely more enjoyable than before.
 
Stock late model clutch springs were marked with blue paint down one side so what you found are probably the originals .....

be4mDZL.jpg


Clutch issues are pretty common on these bikes. Some report their clutch works just fine but most experience some or all of the issues you have. We think that mostly stems from the fact that the clutch plates don't get much separation when you pull the lever in. Then when things get hot, with the extra free play that develops, you get even less plate separation. For that reason, most of us set the adjustment quite snug when cold, with hardly any free play down at the worm or up at the lever. More play develops quite quickly as things warm up so it's not like we're running the adjustments too tight all the time. Set things snug like this and you won't need to make additional adjustments when hot up at the lever.

Also, when setting the adjuster screw on the worm, "fan" the clutch lever as you're turning the screw in. By that I mean pull it through it's range of free play until you feel it hit resistance. Don't pull the lever all the way in and disengage the clutch, just through it's free play range. Do this multiple times as you're tightening the worm screw. What this does is stack all the pushrods and steel balls between the worm and clutch hub tightly together. You may get as much as another 1/4 turn in on the adjuster screw this way. When it's snugged up as much as possible (with the help of this lever fanning), then back it off just a hair, like 1/16 of a turn, 1/8 at most.
 
Thanks fellas, sound advice as always. Looks like I did replace standard springs, so that's ok. I like the crow foot idea, but is the tiny amount mine needs adjusting enough to make a difference?

Also, I used Castrol LM grease, lithium molybdenum, which I assumed would do the same trick.
 
The small amount your shift claw is off probably won't make much difference. I actually have mine adjusted off-set to give a shorter lever throw on upshifts. I did this because I was occasionally missing an upshift, but it didn't seem to help. I may have some worn parts.
 
Next time you come to a full stop while it's still in gear, with the clutch lever pulled, try to roll the bike fore/aft. If difficult and draggy, consider the clutch. If it rolls easily, then it's likely in the shifting mechanisms. My suspicions are about the goofy geometries of the shift forks and guide bar, leading to binding...
 
Hey 2M you of limited on line time.. wuz think'n (ut oh) those ippytatoo 8 plate kits use thinner fraction plates, wonder how a 7 plate with those would work? ie allow more separation? would have to check that they would be clamped, might require some filing? Been adding miles to the 8 plate conversion and so far all is great. The 750 motor pulls well from low RPM which kinda surprised me, I can pretty much simultaneously release clutch and add throttle don't need to rev before letting out clutch.
 
Back
Top