Battry less

[Wally]

Hi



I have just tried to set mine up with A battery less system but having problems i have a XS 650C Cafe
Have Fitted Pamco Ignition
RZ stator & rotor
1999 KZ 250 Capacitor
Removed starter motor


I have fitted the RZ stator & rotor some 6 months ago running fine first start was sometimes hard to get going but when going all OK. My plan was to fit the capacitor later.
It is now later & has fitted a capacitor but bike won't start to say I don't even get a neutral light
So I jumped the capacitor of the car battery & wired to bike as per specks below I then have a neutral light & bike fires up then remove link to car battery & bike keeps running, But if you then turn the bike off the capacitor was still holding a charge, then turn the key on you get No neutral light & capacitor seems to drain straight away... No starting
But all seems to be wired as planed
Can you help or have any ideas

www.xs650.org.au/Alternators.htm

XS pm batteryless
when I did my conversion I wired up batteryless...take the 3 white wires from the alternator to a rec/reg...from the rec/reg then comes a positive and a negative...the neg goes to earth and the pos to a capacitor-min 10000µf and 25 volt-get the capacitor with the screw type terminals...the capacitor has 2 poles-neg goes to earth again-pos has both in-from the rec/reg-and out-to the fusebox...look at the newer ktm offroaders or a wiring diagram for one, they use this system-in fact if you find a wrecked one you can get the capacitor complete with the rubber mounts and the mount bracket...this simplifies the standard wiring and in fact you can remove all the extra safety relays etc completely...another alternative is to replace the original battery with a small gel type...once again it gets rid of the old battery box, at the same time you can remove all the unneccesary relays etc...I folded up a 5mm alu plate that fixes to the same mounts as the battery box under the seat-this holds all the electrics and makes a nice clean space under the seat especially when the filter boxes are replace with conical air filters...

...remember though that like the zenor diodes from old british systems, rec/regs translate excess power into heat so MUST be mounted somewhere that gets constant air flow to cool it... I fixed the rec/reg to the plastic lower rear guard-after reinforcing the other side...

...as the alternator is permanent magnet you dont need a battery to kickstart the bike...as soon as it moves it is generating power...allows you to remove the starter motor too also saving more weight...as these are relatively useless anyway there is no great loss...actually there is a great weightloss gain-no battery-no battery box-no complicated relays and relay wiring-no starter motor...and a way better power source...you can only win...

 

[pamcopete]

wally,

What size is that capacitor? You need at least 10,000 mfd @25 WVDC
Also, you should have a switch for the lights so they are not on when you start the engine.

 

[Wally]

Here is a pic of the first one i tryed from Elec Wholesaler
then got one from a 1999 KX 250
Still dont work
What did i do wrong seems I wired it all up as stated but dont work
SHIT

 

[jay760]

Don't know to much about electrics, but can you isolate the ignition system from every thing else, so there is nothing else on the system bar the coil and pamco unit, so all the charge goes straight to the ignition.

 

[pamcopete]

wally,

OK. And the lights? Are they switched off when you attempt to start?

What is the voltage on the capacitor after you get it running with the car jumper and then remove the jumper?

It's just as jay760 says. You should only have the ignition powered when you attempt to start. The PAMCO will work all the way down to 3 volts, but the coil needs at least 5 or 6 so everything from the alternator has to go to the ignition when you kick it.

 

[Wally]

Thanks
I just Remembered that when this bike was wired up using SR gauges the Speedo side had the light on all the time so maybe this is the problem I will disconnect the Speedo lamps & check again

Have now disconected the allways on lamps in speedo
Jump start bike with battery & capacitor conected bike runs fine disconect battery bike still runs
stop bike check capacitor & is holding over 11v turn key on & loose all power in the capacitor, bike wont start.

I have started tracing through the wiring all the old equipment has been removed, safety with regulater, rectifer but the cabling running to these items are still carring current, could this be part of the drain
Or could there be a problem in the kill switch should I try by passing the kill switch????

Update
With battery Connected & capacitor conected & multimeter connected to battery & kill swith of very very little drain then turn kill switch on & starts to drain battery very quickly 0.01 v a second I reckon,,, is this to mean I have a a earth leakage problem???
Updat,Update
Have now have put power suply sraight from switc to Pamco ignition (nothing else conected) started bike with battery jump then diconect battery,,, bike stays running turn ignition capacitor is holding 13v turn key on bike still wont start,,,, No Idea now other than
Whats the smallest battery i can run without starter?????????????????????????

 

[Wally]

battery Box now gone have a very small battery under seat
Have also removed the chain guard & lower plastic rear guard May make a flat plate that fitts were the rear guard was.

 

[BigJimmyW13]

First wire it up with the wiring diagram that I have attached with the battery. This will test that your ignition system is in fact working....

Then if it is working. Wire it up with the other attached diagram. This is how I got mine to run batteryless and it worked. In your message you kept talking like your cap was a battery... It's not. It holds a very brief second of a charge. In normal circumstances your ignition would run off of the battery and the alternator would replenish said battery, but with a capacitor; essentially your ignition is strictly running on your alternator.

 

[pamcopete]

BigJimmy,

That's a very good suggestion. Not only does it verify that the ignition system is working, but more importantly, it gives you a chance to check the voltage on the capacitor with the engine running.

There have been a few cases where the regulator for the PM capacitor system has been wired incorrectly and the alternator produced 20 + volts, frying the ignition system.

Also a few cases where the PM alternator was not working at all and you could kick yourself to death trying to start the engine with zero volts going to the ignition system.

 

[Sundie]

In your message you kept talking like your cap was a battery... It's not. It holds a very brief second of a charge. In normal circumstances your ignition would run off of the battery and the alternator would replenish said battery, but with a capacitor; essentially your ignition is strictly running on your alternator.

+1. You might get 5 seconds of neutral light out of a 2F cap, but at the size that's going to be, you might as well run a battery. Caps are designed to charge slowly (everything being relative) and discharge quickly - it's main job is to further smooth out the voltage from the rectifier/regulator, and to store a slight charge until the next voltage pulse comes along.

 

[Wally]

I am now Running a PM alternator, regulator/rectifier, Pamco ignition, starter removed with a very small battery
Do I still need the safety relay?

 

[pamcopete]

Wally,

No.

 

[Wally]

Thanks Pamcopete
Have now filled in the battery box area looks cool I think?
Has anyone ever used air pod filter like the old Car Hotrod ones you know the ones Chrome dome wire type.

 

[Wally]

Hi

I have a new problem with my battery set up
Im using a DM12-1.3 battery & all runs fine bit when I turn on the headlight (Globe 65/55watt P43t Modern H4 Lamp) it Eventually drains the battery dry of power then turn the headlight of & its all is OK again I can ride away.
I'm told these are trickle charge batteries & this may be the problem, which means power demand is greater then battery can store or recover from drain.
If this is so could I run a cable from the reg/rec line across to the fuse cable so the battery & this line would run in parallel.
This would give me battery start then once the bike is running I would also have power being supplied from the RZ stator But would I still get some charge going to the battery while riding for next start up??????

Any Ideas out there