black vs white factory coils (diference?)

[billy icon]

hello all, I was reading post after post about what coils to use with a points set up, I have a 72 xs650 and a 69 xs1 (and yes photos of my bikes to come soon) they are both hard ridden bobbers, anyways, I have a huge box of parts and many of my coils are white and many are black... heres the reason I ask, both th bikes have points but the 69 has always had a wird misfire and sometimes a complete cutout (no spark)on one cyl. and Ive tried switching coil after coil to solve the problem and it always seems to work for a bit but eventualy the problem resurfaces again, maybe related to the coil maybe not, but Im wondering if the black ones are for electronic ignition, and the whites are for the points, let me know what you guys know thanks, or even better if there is a replacement coil to use with points that works "very well" let me know about those,

 

[gggGary]

All single tower (plug wire) stock coils are for points. The TCI uses one (two plug wire) coil.

 

[Jim]

To the best of my knowledge, the black and white coils are identical... 'ceptin the color of course...

 

[billy icon]

thank you very much, im getting spoiled here, its amazing what the knowledge of the collective can provide,
so hmmmm this 69 xs1 has allways had this problem since its completion... the problem has been gone for longer than ever this time, but at one point I was gonna pull my hair out, and I fear it will come back when on the road far from home, and it will still run on one cyl, but Im sure ya know its barley able to get home if atoll, at one point I was wondering if it was something weird like a uneaven valve stem(head) and that when in just the right spot it would hold the valve open and misfire, but alas that just how strange the problem is/was that I would lay awake at night trying to imagine WTF it could be, it is good to know that the coils Ive been swaping in and out are all for points,lol I actually have one of the dual out put coils in my box o parts, and I thought it wasn't even for an xs650, now I know, anyways thanks again guys, what seem to be the verdict for a higher output coil to replace the points coils? nothing super powerfull needed just something a little better than stock would be nice

 

[Jim]

You're kinda limited with points to about 4 ohms on the primary. Much lower and you'll toast the points. Remember the cars from earlier years? There used to be a ballast resistor on the power line to the coil to drop the current draw. I didn't wire that resistor in once. Took about 5 min for the points to smoke itself.
Maybe someone else here knows of a better coil for the points bikes?

 

[5twins]

I can't quote you part numbers or anything like that but I'm sure some of the aftermarket coil companies like Accel and/or Andrews make hotter ones. We're lucky in that we can use Harley coils and those companies supply lots of them, some for points models.

 

[billy icon]

what about a Andrews 4.8 ohm coil? or am I chasing minor improvements?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Andrews-23...131861&hash=item341318ef22:g:awkAAOSwqkVdd313

or
http://www.directcycleparts.com/app...-ljZEy-67hPHzPGTUiEfqUOh5aGbt59YaAtSZEALw_wcB

 

[billy icon]

lol I searched 4 ohm coil and this was the first result
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-RD-...DoAAOSwYIhWlBh-:sc:USPSFirstClass!97233!US!-1

 

[Jim]

Those are dual output coils. You could use one by changing the points cam and going to a single point, but that's going down rabbit holes.... You need two single output coils.

 

[5twins]

That Andrews coil is a dual output type. You would need to re-wire your points (in series I think) or switch to a single points set-up.

 

[billy icon]

or theres a lot of these, looks like the coul that comes with the boyer, althou im sure the boyer is a diferent resistance (ohm)

 

[billy icon]

ah yes I see now, I didn't think about the points firing separately, has anyone experimented with wiring the points in series so they fire a wasted spork?

 

[Jim]

ah yes I see now, I didn't think about the points firing separately, has anyone experimented with wiring the points in series so they fire a wasted spork?

I'm sure someone has. I just don't really see the point. With the points, you're still limited to about 4 ohms.... which means about 3 amps of power for making sparks. Some coils use a higher output secondary, but 3 amps is still your limiting factor. You'd have to go electronic iggy that can use around a 2 ohm coil for a hotter spark. 2 ohms gives you about 6 amps of juice to make sparks.

 

[billy icon]

im on my way back out of the rabbit hole now, thanks for the voice of reason,

I am going to do a complete build from the crankcase up and document it here (in a new thread) and I hope you will join me, instead of it being a tutorial or pictorial of how I do it I was hoping every one would get involved and maybe we all learn something, for that motor I purchased the boyer mini with the automatic advance no advance weights used, that's what got me thinking about my last build with the coil droping out now and again..

 

[Jim]

I am going to do a complete build from the crankcase up and document it here (in a new thread) and I hope you will join me, instead of it being a tutorial or pictorial of how I do it I was hoping every one would get involved and maybe we all learn something,

Yeah, I'll join in. Have you read this?

 

[billy icon]

somewhat confused , I was just looking up the 5th gear overdrive, and it seems there is only one gear, I cant imagine it mates to the stock idler gear, or does it? and yes sir I read every sigle thing in the tech section, Im a imformation junki lol

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

For the OD 5th gear, do a forum search on "involute" or "diametric pitch".

The original early points coils were white.


The later and aftermarket Emgo coils are black.

I've found primary resistances differ in the various coils, anywhere from 4.3 ohm to 5.0 ohm. Dunno why, maybe because they were used on other models. But, check the embossed part numbers.

The coils in your "box of coils" may all be bad, intermittent.

M. Morse at 650central offers an oil-filled (stays cooler) coil, like the old Delco and Triumph coils, claims to be hotter.

http://www.650central.com/

Now, the homework,
Do a forum search on "single point".

 

[gggGary]

You can't be too fussy about grounds. Yamaha ran a separate ground wire from the condensers to the engine. Bet that wasn't an accident. Speaking of condensers and poor spark............. Condensers (capacitors) age poorly, as simple as they look and work age based failures are common. Remember when your automotive tune up kit always included a new condenser? Poor quality, unstable, aftermarket points sets can also keep you pulling your hair. As an experiment try a one step hotter plug NGK BP6ES?
I am going through the same inconsistent one cylinder dropping out with a new to me XS1 "WJL" The search for the cause continues.

 

[5twins]

I don't think you can use that overdrive 5th gear in your early motors. The tranny gears were redesigned slightly on the later models and I'm pretty sure that's what that overdrive 5th gear is for.

 

[JAX71224]

hello all, I was reading post after post about what coils to use with a points set up, I have a 72 xs650 and a 69 xs1 (and yes photos of my bikes to come soon) they are both hard ridden bobbers, anyways, I have a huge box of parts and many of my coils are white and many are black... heres the reason I ask, both th bikes have points but the 69 has always had a wird misfire and sometimes a complete cutout (no spark)on one cyl. and Ive tried switching coil after coil to solve the problem and it always seems to work for a bit but eventualy the problem resurfaces again, maybe related to the coil maybe not, but Im wondering if the black ones are for electronic ignition, and the whites are for the points, let me know what you guys know thanks, or even better if there is a replacement coil to use with points that works "very well" let me know about those,

I use a pair of DYNA coils with points and iridium plugs. No apparent ignition issues for YEARS and thousands of miles........The tunnel underside of the tank may need a bit of beating inward with a large ball-pein hammer to get them in there but I feel it's worth it!