Just to fill in a bit of the backstory I posted here some while ago. April 15, 2024. Where does the time go?
https://www.xs650.com/threads/so-git-er-done.52616/post-835582
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BSA / Triumph - TR25 250 single
- Thread starter DaveO
- Start date
Just to fill in a bit of the backstory I posted here some while ago. April 15, 2024. Where does the time go?
https://www.xs650.com/threads/so-git-er-done.52616/post-835582
That'll be easy to start.
I sure do like it though!
Er, I've not found it so. A bit of a saga and I don't come off well in it. I really should heed my own advice about Boyer ignition systems not working well without a sound battery.
A baby Triumph with 8k miles and not been disassembled belongs in a museum.... or at least give the Guinness Book of Records a ring?
Jus' kiddin'... nice find!!
I've since modified my opinion to the owner had a good set of spanners. Certainly the PO (s) had been into the primary chain case and clutch. Lots else has been modified. I can spy a very shiny head copper head gasket and there are lots of oil leaks. Fingers crossed.
There are two things that put a smile on my face and make me feel like I'm ready to take on the world.
That first, proper sunny day in Spring.
When you've been struggling with a bike and it suddenly bursts into life. Especially when you've been at a complete loss as to what the problem is/was. I got the clutch all buttoned up day 1. Today I fitted a new electronic ignition.
That first, proper sunny day in Spring.
When you've been struggling with a bike and it suddenly bursts into life. Especially when you've been at a complete loss as to what the problem is/was. I got the clutch all buttoned up day 1. Today I fitted a new electronic ignition.
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The bike came to me with:
Missing chain
Missing throttle and throttle cables
It hadn't run since 2016
I thought a couple of afternoons cleaning tank, changing oil, cleaning the carb, setting timing and general "wake up" would have it running. It was not to be. After kicking myself into apoplexy I was able to get it started. But if I turned it off it wouldn't definitely start again. I didn't dare go anywhere.
I suspected the carb. Amal Concentrics are notorious for pilot circuit blockages. Hours of youtube videos later - cleaned and sorted.
I suspected plug, HT lead and coil. Plug changed, HT lead ohmed out OK. Plug cap was no resistor type. Changed for a new resistor cap. Bought a new digital multimeter and checked out the coil and leads and connections. It was fine. (all the time I was getting decent spark anyway.)
Wet plug, good compression (thumb test anyway) good sparks.
I suspected the timing - although I'd done it. BSAs have a hole drilled in flywheel which marks 37 degrees before TDC. There's a tool to lock the crank at this point. Bought one. Checked the timing using this method.
Spent an hour making a degree wheel with printer, scissors and gum. Re-timed it using this method.
All of this was making me think. "Its me. I'm too old and decrepit." This concern was amplified when a more experienced club member came around, kicked it over and managed to start it. I wanted the ground to open up and swallow me.
Found two videos online which made me suspect the clutch. If I stood on the kickstart the clutch was sometimes soggy. So I took clutch apart and I did find it had been wrongly assembled. Away for a fortnight in Devon and Dorset I read about the Vape electronic ignition. The MK2 version is for 6v and 12v British bikes and was promised to cope better than a Boyer with low voltages and less than optimum batteries. Down to 8V. I bought one persuading myself that it would fit both my XS and the BSA and would be there on the mat when I got home.
It was whim. I had already replaced the 12V alarm system battery with a new motorcycle battery and had also tried my XS battery (a few years old but not exhibiting any problems).
NB - Boyer Bransden will check over their systems. I think it costs about £30 - £40 quid. I decided against that, as if its duff ... well I'm into into paying for a repair or buying a new one anyway. (And well, the Vape is soooo shiny.)
Missing chain
Missing throttle and throttle cables
It hadn't run since 2016
I thought a couple of afternoons cleaning tank, changing oil, cleaning the carb, setting timing and general "wake up" would have it running. It was not to be. After kicking myself into apoplexy I was able to get it started. But if I turned it off it wouldn't definitely start again. I didn't dare go anywhere.
I suspected the carb. Amal Concentrics are notorious for pilot circuit blockages. Hours of youtube videos later - cleaned and sorted.
I suspected plug, HT lead and coil. Plug changed, HT lead ohmed out OK. Plug cap was no resistor type. Changed for a new resistor cap. Bought a new digital multimeter and checked out the coil and leads and connections. It was fine. (all the time I was getting decent spark anyway.)
Wet plug, good compression (thumb test anyway) good sparks.
I suspected the timing - although I'd done it. BSAs have a hole drilled in flywheel which marks 37 degrees before TDC. There's a tool to lock the crank at this point. Bought one. Checked the timing using this method.
Spent an hour making a degree wheel with printer, scissors and gum. Re-timed it using this method.
All of this was making me think. "Its me. I'm too old and decrepit." This concern was amplified when a more experienced club member came around, kicked it over and managed to start it. I wanted the ground to open up and swallow me.
Found two videos online which made me suspect the clutch. If I stood on the kickstart the clutch was sometimes soggy. So I took clutch apart and I did find it had been wrongly assembled. Away for a fortnight in Devon and Dorset I read about the Vape electronic ignition. The MK2 version is for 6v and 12v British bikes and was promised to cope better than a Boyer with low voltages and less than optimum batteries. Down to 8V. I bought one persuading myself that it would fit both my XS and the BSA and would be there on the mat when I got home.
It was whim. I had already replaced the 12V alarm system battery with a new motorcycle battery and had also tried my XS battery (a few years old but not exhibiting any problems).
NB - Boyer Bransden will check over their systems. I think it costs about £30 - £40 quid. I decided against that, as if its duff ... well I'm into into paying for a repair or buying a new one anyway. (And well, the Vape is soooo shiny.)
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This is the Vape. Its reputedly made by Wassel who make Amal Carburettor copies, but its actually made by a Polish firm with a great reputation for supplying electronic components for cars (I've been told).
... and this is what comes in the box.
The pickup up plate is a milled aluminium - painted or powder coated. All of the wiring is encapsulated. Its a great fit in the space and none of the wobbly, rushed-looking and all exposed design of the Boyer. The ignition module is similarly bullet-proof looking and a completely sealed unit. The one I got in the MK2 had two tabs which I used to bolt it to the tool box. Better in my opinion than the MK1 which had none and presumably is fixed in place using electrical ties.
The control box had two connectors: one for the pickup (two wires) and one (four wires) for earth, live and coil(s).
Extended cables are supplied with the appropriate connectors to connect to the ignition module at one end and with bare ends at the other. Vape supply crimp connectors as shown. Good quality ones, which was a pleasant surprise. The two black screws are (UNF/ UNC) and metric for use as appropriate.
Vape also supply a tool for positioning the magnet rotor ( a nice touch) and an extractor to get it off again. Its a taper fit. Boyer Branden's instruction when I asked about getting one off years ago was to insert a screwdriver and tap it with a hammer. (Which, in fairness to them, worked fine.)
I think I paid £130 and its a sound bit of kit.
Dave
... and this is what comes in the box.
The pickup up plate is a milled aluminium - painted or powder coated. All of the wiring is encapsulated. Its a great fit in the space and none of the wobbly, rushed-looking and all exposed design of the Boyer. The ignition module is similarly bullet-proof looking and a completely sealed unit. The one I got in the MK2 had two tabs which I used to bolt it to the tool box. Better in my opinion than the MK1 which had none and presumably is fixed in place using electrical ties.
The control box had two connectors: one for the pickup (two wires) and one (four wires) for earth, live and coil(s).
Extended cables are supplied with the appropriate connectors to connect to the ignition module at one end and with bare ends at the other. Vape supply crimp connectors as shown. Good quality ones, which was a pleasant surprise. The two black screws are (UNF/ UNC) and metric for use as appropriate.
Vape also supply a tool for positioning the magnet rotor ( a nice touch) and an extractor to get it off again. Its a taper fit. Boyer Branden's instruction when I asked about getting one off years ago was to insert a screwdriver and tap it with a hammer. (Which, in fairness to them, worked fine.)
I think I paid £130 and its a sound bit of kit.
Dave
There's one that's been listed on E-Bay US for about a year or more at $329 as a Wassel but looks identical to what you have there.
I've checked my account. I paid £142. ($191)
If its more expensive than that it could be a charging system with electronic ignition (PMA). They do them for scooters, I think.
This is a MK1 after a minute googling.
https://www.aceclassics.co.uk/products/wassell-12v-electronic-ignition-system/
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It's going to be July 4th before I get finished. Still, learning lots and enjoying myself.
Lots of slack in the clutch cable was explained by the strange behavior of the clutch actuating arm. I Imagined some sort of ball bearing dropping out or clutch rod not engaging with whatever awaited on the other end of it. It did occur to me as I was taking the timing side off. "I wonder if I left the clutch rod out?" Thankfully, No. Here it is.
Several different length (new) Allen screws hold the timing case on (as per Yamaha) and two different sizes (as per BSA/Triumph).
Slight panic when taking the photo at an unfilled hole. "I didn't hear anything drop." Only to remember I had removed an unassociated crankcase screw.
Slightly more oil than expected. But there are holes between crankcase and this outer and I'd had the bike lain on its side to get the clutch basket bearings in. This is just what i didn't catch.
There was no gasket in place but a small trail of still-wet, pink goo. Most of it seemed to be along to top edge where there's no oil and none in evidence along the bottom. Found a small piece of stray metal lurking in the bottom of the timing case.
The clutch actuator is probably the first thing I've found where I've thought, "That's better made and more simply designed than the Yamaha version." This is much better than a plastic spiral. It's possible that the mechanism can become incorrectly registered. You can see it goes over the top here in the video as I'd already taken the central bit out and put it back.
I'm guessing the manual isn't going to discuss this. So. a bit of trial and error will have to suffice. I'm guessing a position where the arm points directly parallel along the lines of the bike when the arm is at 50% travel. Thinking brakes arms.
Next job: order a gasket. Strangely this is not one of the places I thought oil was leaking from. More top end and running down.
Lots of slack in the clutch cable was explained by the strange behavior of the clutch actuating arm. I Imagined some sort of ball bearing dropping out or clutch rod not engaging with whatever awaited on the other end of it. It did occur to me as I was taking the timing side off. "I wonder if I left the clutch rod out?" Thankfully, No. Here it is.
Several different length (new) Allen screws hold the timing case on (as per Yamaha) and two different sizes (as per BSA/Triumph).
Slight panic when taking the photo at an unfilled hole. "I didn't hear anything drop." Only to remember I had removed an unassociated crankcase screw.
Slightly more oil than expected. But there are holes between crankcase and this outer and I'd had the bike lain on its side to get the clutch basket bearings in. This is just what i didn't catch.
There was no gasket in place but a small trail of still-wet, pink goo. Most of it seemed to be along to top edge where there's no oil and none in evidence along the bottom. Found a small piece of stray metal lurking in the bottom of the timing case.
The clutch actuator is probably the first thing I've found where I've thought, "That's better made and more simply designed than the Yamaha version." This is much better than a plastic spiral. It's possible that the mechanism can become incorrectly registered. You can see it goes over the top here in the video as I'd already taken the central bit out and put it back.
I'm guessing the manual isn't going to discuss this. So. a bit of trial and error will have to suffice. I'm guessing a position where the arm points directly parallel along the lines of the bike when the arm is at 50% travel. Thinking brakes arms.
Next job: order a gasket. Strangely this is not one of the places I thought oil was leaking from. More top end and running down.
The Triumph now starts OK, stops passably well, but after a short run around the block leaks like the Torrey Canyon. I've fixed two leaks so far: the primary chain case and pushrod inspection cover ... which was loose. It's difficult to see where stuff is coming from and I've spent a fair amount of time lying on the garage floor with a torch going, "hmmm".
It's an OIF version and BSAs and Triumphs also have a lot of external stuff like filters and oil lines which can leak.
Whipped the rocker box off today and found a torn gasket (just where I thought oil was additionally coming from
) and a lot of old gasket goo. Looks like the gasket surfaces have been attacked with hammer. Why do people DO that?
BSA Owners Club North East experts tell me the studs are wrong and should be waisted, not allthread, but I think it will be fine with a new gasket. I'll make a mental note to maybe sort this later. Someone from the club has offered to skim the surfaces but I'm not keen on taking the head off. Future work.
I hope to get the rocker box back on tomorrow. (I need to look up how to fit pushrods correctly. Do a few runs no further than a mile from here (pushing distance ) to get some faith in it. May has been a washout for weather here so far, (keep telling yourself that, Dave) so June first is my new target date. I'm posting so I'm committed. I'm hoping to meet up with @Raymond again. He'll probably think I'm avoiding him.
I only rode the Yamaha a little last year due to circumstances but its flaws are catching up. There's a slight oil leak from the back end - I suspect countershaft. There's a mysterious rattle on occasions. I've got a heavier chain than original and I suspect it might be clicking on the shift shaft chain guard. If its that I might be looking for one of those Delrin thingies. I want to rebuild the clutch. It still drags when hot and I got new plates for Christmas. But most importantly the brakes need a serious looking at. When I got it back on the road in lockdown I only did the minimum and house moves, operations etc have got in the way since then. Plus my riding (and encouragement) pal is in Devon.
My plan was to get the Triumph up and running and use that this Summer to run around on while I work on the Yamaha. That hasn't worked out too well.
It's an OIF version and BSAs and Triumphs also have a lot of external stuff like filters and oil lines which can leak.
Whipped the rocker box off today and found a torn gasket (just where I thought oil was additionally coming from
) and a lot of old gasket goo. Looks like the gasket surfaces have been attacked with hammer. Why do people DO that?BSA Owners Club North East experts tell me the studs are wrong and should be waisted, not allthread, but I think it will be fine with a new gasket. I'll make a mental note to maybe sort this later. Someone from the club has offered to skim the surfaces but I'm not keen on taking the head off. Future work.
I hope to get the rocker box back on tomorrow. (I need to look up how to fit pushrods correctly. Do a few runs no further than a mile from here (pushing distance ) to get some faith in it. May has been a washout for weather here so far, (keep telling yourself that, Dave) so June first is my new target date. I'm posting so I'm committed. I'm hoping to meet up with @Raymond again. He'll probably think I'm avoiding him.
I only rode the Yamaha a little last year due to circumstances but its flaws are catching up. There's a slight oil leak from the back end - I suspect countershaft. There's a mysterious rattle on occasions. I've got a heavier chain than original and I suspect it might be clicking on the shift shaft chain guard. If its that I might be looking for one of those Delrin thingies. I want to rebuild the clutch. It still drags when hot and I got new plates for Christmas. But most importantly the brakes need a serious looking at. When I got it back on the road in lockdown I only did the minimum and house moves, operations etc have got in the way since then. Plus my riding (and encouragement) pal is in Devon.
My plan was to get the Triumph up and running and use that this Summer to run around on while I work on the Yamaha. That hasn't worked out too well.
Definitely not!
You (and maybe everyone!
) may know this hack, but when I was fitting pushrods down in the "hole" and to be sure they were properly seated on the followers / lifters, I would put a little dab of grease on the concave surface. That way, when it properly engages the convex surface of the follower, it sticks on their with a little suction, and you can tell because it does not lift as easily as if it wasn't in the right place.Or maybe I'm the only one that ever had a problem getting them properly fixed in place? And if they're not properly placed and you think they are, it is possible to bend a pushrod... don't ask me how I know.
Sorry, don't have my manual at hand, the 250 push rods are different length, just slightly, one is marked with some reddish paint which I believe is the Exhaust, but don't quote me.
You need to get them right.
Use some good sealer, like Yamabond or other similar should make it oil tight even without skimming the surfaces.
Yeah the studs aren't correct but shouldn't affect anything.
You need to get them right.
Use some good sealer, like Yamabond or other similar should make it oil tight even without skimming the surfaces.
Yeah the studs aren't correct but shouldn't affect anything.
Here you are Inner push rod is exhaust, see lower left paragraph
If you don't already have a copy there's a pdf download available at www.b50.org website.
You'll need to register to get access to the link below
https://www.b50.org/downloads/B50-B25workshop-manual-1971.PDF
You'll need to register to get access to the link below
https://www.b50.org/downloads/B50-B25workshop-manual-1971.PDF