Carburetor conundrum

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First of all thanks to everyone on this forum. I have learned so much and I really appreciate it. I have four different XS650s. I have read the AMAZING carburetor guides on here ten times or more.

I purchased a 1979 XS650 Special II with only 2,500 original miles from the original owner. It had sat for a long time, but it was running okay at best when I bought it. I have been slowly fixing all the small things and getting it going in the right direction. The carburetors were leaking so I rebuilt them with a rebuild kit. I also replaced the o-ring on the emulsion tube and the throttle shaft seals. While they were off of the bike I rigged up a spare set of 1973 carbs to the 1979 bike and it ran pretty good. When I put the rebuilt original carburetors back on the bike it had a really bad hesitation just off idle when you open the throttle. I played with the pilot screws until it started to get better and was close to running properly, but they pilot screws were almost 4.5 turns out. (1979 carbs don't have a spring on the pilot screws at all?) The hesitation got better when the choke was activated so it's starving for fuel. So... I took the carbs off and put in larger pilot screws, but it didn't change much at all. So, I kept on adjusting and changing. I also replaced the pilot screws with NOS Yamaha screws. I am currently at 140 Main Jets and 35 pilot jets (135 and 27.5 were original sizes.) I am still having the hesitation (low fuel) just off idle as you try to accelerate and I can't get it dialed in. With everything I am still forced to have the pilot screws 4 turns out to get the bike to run somewhat close to normal just off idle.

I have adjusted and checked the cam chain tensioner, the timing and the valve clearance. I also inspected the timing advance unit since that has given me troubles on other bikes but it seems to work great. Almost everything on this bike is original still. Same original ignition and charging system. The original owner did drill out the ends of the mufflers though. I have synced the carbs visually and they are very close. I also set the pilot screws using the dead cylinder method and when I do that it seems to be they are set at 3 turns out, but then it won't run properly when I drive it. If I back them out a full turn it gets better, but four turns out is pretty far and conflicts with the dead cylinder method.

The only things I have not done is sync the carbs with an actual fluid vacuum synchronizer and change the position of the jet needle clip. The bike runs really good once you get just past the flat spot at opening of the throttle. What else am I missing? Any ideas? Is it as simple as changing the jet needle position? I'm perplexed as to why it ran great with a spare, old set of carbs I had laying around. Thanks you all so much.

IMG_3545.jpg
IMG_3546.jpg
 
I think it sounds like the plot mixture circuit isn't properly clean. When doing carburettors I triple check that I get a good solid squirt of carb cleaner equally through the tiny pilot mixture ports adjacent to the throttle plates. Unfortunately for you to check this again you're going to have to remove and partly strip the carburettors again. Hope that helps.
 
I think it sounds like the plot mixture circuit isn't properly clean. When doing carburettors I triple check that I get a good solid squirt of carb cleaner equally through the tiny pilot mixture ports adjacent to the throttle plates. Unfortunately for you to check this again you're going to have to remove and partly strip the carburettors again. Hope that helps.
Thanks! I cleaned the crap out of these carbs, but maybe not good enough. I will take them off for about the 5th time. When I clean the pilot circuit again can I leave an old/spare pilot screw turned in all the way to block that passage and get more carb cleaner and compressed air going through the other three tiny holes for the pilot circuit without causing damage? Maybe in my cleaning they didn't get cleaned enough because all the compressed air and cleaner was going through the pilot screw outlet and not the tiny holes outlets? Thanks again.
 
I remove the mix screw and just block it's hole on the outside of the carb with my finger. If you block it's outlet hole into the main bore as well then all the compressed air and carb cleaner will be forced out the three tiny holes .....

Pilot Outlets BS38.jpg


But getting air and carb cleaner into the circuit from the bottom of the carb can be difficult because of it's rather small inlet hole .....

Pilot Inlet BS38.jpg


It's much easier to put both through the mix screw hole. Block off the mix screw outlet in the main bore and the pilot inlet on the bottom of the carb, and the air and cleaner will be forced out the three holes. Block the three holes and the pilot inlet, and it will come out the mix screw outlet. Block all 4 holes in the bore and it will come out the pilot inlet on the bottom of the carb body. By alternating like this, you should be able to get the circuit clear. Carb cleaner is very corrosive so once I'm done, I like to flush it out with something mild like WD40 or just plain old kerosene.
 
I'm not worthy. I'm not worthy. Kidding, but you guys are amazing. Thank you so much 5twins.

I am going to take off the carbs again and clean the pilot circuit until my hands go numb. I will update you all once I have time to clean.

I am considering putting the pilot jet and main jet back to original sizes in anticipation of this cleaning actually working. I am currently at 140 Main Jets and 35 pilot jets (135 and 27.5 were original sizes) but the only modification is the holes drilled in the muffler. If the cleaning of the pilot system works I am attempting to save time by not having to take the carbs off again and re-jet again if it works.

I thought I was missing the springs on the mix screw so I ordered new ones. Once the spring is installed I cannot even get the mix screw started. The spring makes it impossible. I was perplexed, but I have this original 1979 and I also have two other custom chopper 1979's so I took the mix screws out of both of those bikes and neither had springs on the mix screw. I didn't see any stuck springs in the hole on any of them either. Three 1979's and none have the spring on the mix screw and I can't even get the screw started with a spring on it. Maybe I'm missing something, but.....
 
First of all thanks to everyone on this forum. I have learned so much and I really appreciate it. I have four different XS650s. I have read the AMAZING carburetor guides on here ten times or more.

I purchased a 1979 XS650 Special II with only 2,500 original miles from the original owner. It had sat for a long time, but it was running okay at best when I bought it. I have been slowly fixing all the small things and getting it going in the right direction. The carburetors were leaking so I rebuilt them with a rebuild kit. I also replaced the o-ring on the emulsion tube and the throttle shaft seals. While they were off of the bike I rigged up a spare set of 1973 carbs to the 1979 bike and it ran pretty good. When I put the rebuilt original carburetors back on the bike it had a really bad hesitation just off idle when you open the throttle. I played with the pilot screws until it started to get better and was close to running properly, but they pilot screws were almost 4.5 turns out. (1979 carbs don't have a spring on the pilot screws at all?) The hesitation got better when the choke was activated so it's starving for fuel. So... I took the carbs off and put in larger pilot screws, but it didn't change much at all. So, I kept on adjusting and changing. I also replaced the pilot screws with NOS Yamaha screws. I am currently at 140 Main Jets and 35 pilot jets (135 and 27.5 were original sizes.) I am still having the hesitation (low fuel) just off idle as you try to accelerate and I can't get it dialed in. With everything I am still forced to have the pilot screws 4 turns out to get the bike to run somewhat close to normal just off idle.

I have adjusted and checked the cam chain tensioner, the timing and the valve clearance. I also inspected the timing advance unit since that has given me troubles on other bikes but it seems to work great. Almost everything on this bike is original still. Same original ignition and charging system. The original owner did drill out the ends of the mufflers though. I have synced the carbs visually and they are very close. I also set the pilot screws using the dead cylinder method and when I do that it seems to be they are set at 3 turns out, but then it won't run properly when I drive it. If I back them out a full turn it gets better, but four turns out is pretty far and conflicts with the dead cylinder method.

The only things I have not done is sync the carbs with an actual fluid vacuum synchronizer and change the position of the jet needle clip. The bike runs really good once you get just past the flat spot at opening of the throttle. What else am I missing? Any ideas? Is it as simple as changing the jet needle position? I'm perplexed as to why it ran great with a spare, old set of carbs I had laying around. Thanks you all so much.

View attachment 359387View attachment 359388

Edited my earlier post. Shows a pilot screw spring in the 78/79 Symantec


Helps the OP....good post
IMG_20251015_211212.jpg
 
I remove the mix screw and just block it's hole on the outside of the carb with my finger. If you block it's outlet hole into the main bore as well then all the compressed air and carb cleaner will be forced out the three tiny holes .....

View attachment 359398

But getting air and carb cleaner into the circuit from the bottom of the carb can be difficult because of it's rather small inlet hole .....

View attachment 359399

It's much easier to put both through the mix screw hole. Block off the mix screw outlet in the main bore and the pilot inlet on the bottom of the carb, and the air and cleaner will be forced out the three holes. Block the three holes and the pilot inlet, and it will come out the mix screw outlet. Block all 4 holes in the bore and it will come out the pilot inlet on the bottom of the carb body. By alternating like this, you should be able to get the circuit clear. Carb cleaner is very corrosive so once I'm done, I like to flush it out with something mild like WD40 or just plain old kerosene.
I was extremely hopeful that this would solve my hesitation (low fuel) issue. I was 100% sure it was the fix when I removed the carbs and started examining the pilot circuit like you instructed. On the right side carb I was able to blow compressed air through all parts of the circuit with no issues. When I moved to the left carb I could not get any air at all through the three tiny outlet holes; completely plugged. Eureka! Or so I thought. After failing to get any air through those passages I took a twist tie and burned off the plastic so I had a very tiny wire which I inserted into the three holes and was able to unclog them. Then I was able to blow tons of compressed air through the circuit. I cleaned it out many, many times and was extremely confident that this was my issue from the start. So confident, that I went back to the original sized main jet (135) and one over pilot jet (30.)

I put everything back together and was so excited to take a test drive feeling supremely confident. That was shattered when immediately I faced the exact same hesitation issue I have been battling. It even felt like going back to the original jet sizes made it worse. Pilot screws had to be four turns out again to even ride the bike. It is falling on it's face just off idle when you crack the throttle open. When I try it with the choke activated it takes off like normal, so I'm assuming I still have a low fuel issues.

The floats are good, the diaphragms still hold and I can't figure out what is going on. Like I said in my original post: the bike is almost factory with the exception of the drilled holes in the muffler. Any ideas? I really thought that you guys had me fixed on this issue, so I'm a bit disappointed I can't figure this out.
 
Is the air bleed to the pilot jet open?
I use spray cleaner, not air to see delivery to the PJ. Then spray in the air bleed ((air cleaner side), cover PJ (in float bowl) with your thumb. You should see fluid stream from idle scre port in carb throat, & the 3 bypass holes if you open butterfly a bit.

If you're not seeing a stream out all four holes, you still have junk in there.
If not clear, remove fuel screw & PJ. Spray in screw hole while covering a 4 outlet holes with thumb. Maybe the junk can because forced backwards out where the PJ was.

In my experience, wear safety glasses & close your mouth!
 
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