Caswell liner failure

[jetmechmarty]

In my last job, R & D at a plastics compounder, we set or product in a xylene bath. Any polyethylene that had not crosslinked(cured) would dissove in the xylene and a very careful measurement (grams to 5 decimal places) would reveal the level of cure. If these epoxy liners have a hint of bad cure, a hint of the wrong mix ratio or some other system failure then it is only a matter of time. I know very little about these systems, about the epoxy used or about the chemical make up.

I used the entire contents that Caswell sent to me, therefore I have to assume my mix is perfect. As I recall the temperature that I was working in was neither hot nor cold and it took a good bit of time to set up. The tank is now stored in the house and had no fuel exposure.

This thread concerns me because I took a very rusty tank to very clean metal. If Caswell needs rust to grip, they should insist it be so. I gave a tank to a friend of mine. There was a liner in it that subsequently failed. He mechanically removed the loose parts of the liner and the rust by shaking around loose hardware. He put Caswell over the old liner and the rust. I believe this was at least seven years ago and he still has the bike. He has no tank issue as of late. I would have believed my way to be far better, but now, I'm having doubts.

 

[grizld1]

I've done 4 tanks with Caswell over the last 10 years or so with no problems. Prep consisted of cleaning with high pressure water followed by an overnight soak with a 50-50 mix of acetone and denatured alcohol and rust removal with Metal Rescue. If rust removal was a problem, I'd think there should have been at least one failure.

 

[Kevin Werner]

I used the entire contents that Caswell sent to me, therefore I have to assume my mix is perfect. As I recall the temperature that I was working in was neither hot nor cold and it took a good bit of time to set up. The tank is now stored in the house and had no fuel exposure.

My "mix" comment was aimed at the chemicals themselves. I worked with a company (buying lab equipment from them) who extruded composite decking. One of their suppliers sent a railcar full of resin minus the specified UV inhibitor. Needless to say, their decking failed in just a few years, they almost went under and that scenario gave a black eye to the composite decking industry for a while.

 

[willis]

Marty, my liner looked just like yours pictured above when I bought the tank. On mine, the area where the failure occurred is very smooth. I’m not sure it needs rust for adhesion, but some form of texture for the epoxy to cling to according to Caswell.

 

[grizld1]

Hmmmm. The inside surfaces of all 4 tanks I've done were smooth as the proverbial baby's butt and the coatings are still fine. I'm a bit suspicious that citing a need for texture might be an excuse to cover up an ongoing quality problem.

 

[650Skull]

I used the entire contents that Caswell sent to me, therefore I have to assume my mix is perfect. As I recall the temperature that I was working in was neither hot nor cold and it took a good bit of time to set up. The tank is now stored in the house and had no fuel exposure.
View attachment 209931
This thread concerns me because I took a very rusty tank to very clean metal. If Caswell needs rust to grip, they should insist it be so. I gave a tank to a friend of mine. There was a liner in it that subsequently failed. He mechanically removed the loose parts of the liner and the rust by shaking around loose hardware. He put Caswell over the old liner and the rust. I believe this was at least seven years ago and he still has the bike. He has no tank issue as of late. I would have believed my way to be far better, but now, I'm having doubts.

Noticed a lot of bubbles, (and a couple of real big ones), in that liner. Never having done one of these, i have done a bit of 2 pac stuff and usually it recommends to get all the air pockets out of the finished product

 

[jetmechmarty]

Noticed a lot of bubbles, (and a couple of real big ones), in that liner. Never having done one of these, i have done a bit of 2 pac stuff and usually it recommends to get all the air pockets out of the finished product

You can’t fold this stuff like body filler. It’s liquid. That stuff is rolling around in the tank for what seems an eternity before it sets up. I can’t imagine how to avoid every bubble.
Eh, I don’t believe they’re of any consequence.

 

[bigmark0272]

Shit, shit, triple shit!!! Today I was putting the bikes into winter storage. I drained the fuel from my ‘75 and peeked inside the tank and noticed something did not look right. Upon closer inspection I found that my Caswell tank liner has failed. It just makes me sick. This tank was professionally painted and sealed. When I bought the tank, it had been painted seven years prior and never installed or had gas in it. I’ve had it for roughly 2 years now. The liner looked fantastic when I got it. It is clear now that the liner is separating and breaking apart. The metal inside the tank looks very nice with no rust I can see. It’s very hard to get pictures in there but these show the worst part. I am not sure how to go about removing this liner. All I have read indicates using nasty paint stripper. I’m so afraid it’s going to ruin this beautiful paint job. I’ll have to reach out to Caswell for their recommendations. I don’t think the MEK I’ve heard of is available anymore. View attachment 202184

Dude it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see why it failed. One can clearly see the old liner under the Cash wells. The keys to good adhesion and bonding of ANY liner are 1: All the old shit has to come out, 2: Second stage is crucial, you must use a quality etcher, must be sulfuric acid based, on a completely carbon substance (meaning oil, grease, anything that comes from a deep hole in the ground) free surface. Let the etcher do it's thing drain it into a container as you may need it again. Once completely dry using a good bright flashlight (preferably an extendable flex light) and inspection mirror make sure the entire tank has no loose crap and a kinda powdery surface, and finally 3: Follow the instructions to perfection. Remember the people who design, develope and test this stuff are extremely intelligent with usually PhD's in multiple Engineering Disciplines. Now back to the Caswell product itself, it is a 2 part Phenol Novolac epoxy. Phenol Novolac is one of the very very very few products that is completely impervious to about all chemicals, carbon based fuels and alcohols (ethanol is an alcohol). If there's one product on the market I'm 100% confident in to not fail (when installed correctly) it's this one!!!! KBS makes a great sealer as well, if you want to know. I don't pretend to know everything, but at the risk of sounding like egotistical braggart, trust me I'm not, but I'm also no dummy as I attended the 3rd most difficult school in the country (according to Time/Life, Naval Enlisted Nuclear propulsion only tougher were #2 MIT PhD in Eng and #1 Naval Officers Propulsion). As Propulsion students they crammed over 8 semesters of Nuke and Electrical (in my case) Eng down our throats in 78 weeks. 13 more credit hours I would have my Masters in Nuke Eng.

 

[bigmark0272]

Shit, shit, triple shit!!! Today I was putting the bikes into winter storage. I drained the fuel from my ‘75 and peeked inside the tank and noticed something did not look right. Upon closer inspection I found that my Caswell tank liner has failed. It just makes me sick. This tank was professionally painted and sealed. When I bought the tank, it had been painted seven years prior and never installed or had gas in it. I’ve had it for roughly 2 years now. The liner looked fantastic when I got it. It is clear now that the liner is separating and breaking apart. The metal inside the tank looks very nice with no rust I can see. It’s very hard to get pictures in there but these show the worst part. I am not sure how to go about removing this liner. All I have read indicates using nasty paint stripper. I’m so afraid it’s going to ruin this beautiful paint job. I’ll have to reach out to Caswell for their recommendations. I don’t think the MEK I’ve heard of is available anymore. View attachment 202184

Dude it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see why it failed. One can clearly see the old liner under the Cash wells. The keys to good adhesion and bonding of ANY liner are 1: All the old shit has to come out, 2: Second stage is crucial, you must use a quality etcher on a completely carbon substance (meaning oil, grease, anything that comes from a deep hole in the ground) free surface. Let the etcher do it's thing drain it into a container as you may need it again. Once completely dry using a good bright flashlight (preferably an extendable flex light) and inspection mirror make sure the entire tank has no loose crap and a kinda powdery surface, and finally 3: Follow the instructions to perfection. Remember the people who design, develope and test this stuff are extremely intelligent with usually PhD's in multiple Engineering Disciplines. Now back to the Caswell product itself, it is a 2 part Phenol Novolac epoxy. Phenol Novolac is one of the very very very few products that is completely impervious to about all chemicals, carbon based fuels and alcohols (ethanol is an alcohol). If there's one product on the market I'm 100% confident in to not fail (when installed correctly) it's this one!!!! KBS makes a great sealer as well, if you want to know. I don't pretend to know everything, but at the risk of sounding like egotistical braggart, trust me I'm not, but I'm also no dummy as I attended the 3rd most difficult school in the country (according to Time/Life, Naval Enlisted Nuclear propulsion only tougher were #2 MIT PhD in Eng and #1 Naval Officers Propulsion). As Propulsion students they crammed over 8 semesters of Nuke and Electrical (in my case) Eng down our throats in 78 weeks. 13 more credit hours I would have my Masters in Nuke Eng.

 

[willis]

BigMark I’m not sure what you think you see, but I assure you there is nothing under the Caswell liner but bare metal.

 

[jetmechmarty]

BigMark I’m not sure what you think you see, but I assure you there is nothing under the Caswell liner but bare metal.

Key for me right now is that you didn’t install it. You can’t verify the condition of the tank when the liner was installed. For all you know, it could have had a film of oil under it.

 

[Wingedwheel]

13 more credit hours I would have my Masters in Nuke Eng.

Would that make you a Rocket Scientist?

 

[bigmark0272]

BigMark I’m not sure what you think you see, but I assure you there is nothing under the Caswell liner but bare metal.

Galvanized metal is not

BigMark I’m not sure what you think you see, but I assure you there is nothing under the Caswell liner but bare metal.

Not holding the tank in my hands I'm not going to doubt your veracity. But couple things that caught my attention 1: You see those brown/rust colored streaks? Bare metal doesn't do that, the whole open spot would be rusted typically. And 2 you see that pimple looking thing on big shit spot? If that's not old liner what is that? I've never seen cold rolled galvanized steel do that. In the 20 years I've been a mechanic after leaving the service and my 50 years on this big blue marble I've never seen it do that nor have that sheen.

 

[toglhot]

When I read the number of tank liners failing, I really don't understand why you'd line your tank. For one thing it is impossible to totally clean the inside of a tank, it may look clean, but there are some areas you just can't see, like where the top is welded to the saddle. And of course if you part the job out, you are then reliant on someone else, doomed to failure.

Petrol is an oil base, as long as the tank is clean and there is petrol inside, it should remain reasonably clean. Of course there will always be some water in the petrol and rust spots may appear, but nothing a decent fuel filter can't fix.

In over 50 years of building and riding bikes, I've never lined a tank and never had a problem after the tank was cleaned inside.

 

[gggGary]

Hey @bigmark0272 ! Welcome to the forum.
Care to tell us what brought you here? You have motorcycles or XS650's? Work in the chemical industry?
Sorry but i can't help doing this; the guy who spent 300 words telling us how smart and educated he is, double posted his first forum entry.............

All of what you say seems right but like said above a used motorcycle gas tank interior is going to be "pretty clean" at best.
I've got one now with a partially failed liner but whatever that liner is, even MEK won't soften it, so I'm kinda stuck on my next course of action. Since it's a straight original 70's British tank I have a strong desire to use it on the bike it was on.
Kinda like toglhot I seldom line but it's certainly an option for tanks that have been rusty then chemically or electrically cleaned but may have seams, low areas where a thickening, reenforcing layer seems like a good idea.

 

[MaxPete]

The only liner I have ever installed was POR15 - after extensive research. All of the others, but particularly KREME seem to dissolve if there is any ethanol in the fuel (and there just about always is around here AFAICT).

But, the most of convincing thing I heard about it was that Jay Leno (and I am not really a fan of his at all) uses it on his big-dollar restorations. POR15 seems to be impervious to just about anything and now, after about 6-7 years, it is still in good condition. The only downside was the effort to install it: there are several slightly messy steps and the final one is to keep turning the tank for several hours to distribute the lining all over while it cures - and believe me, this step is exhausting.

Consequently, for my other tanks, I just keep them full of fuel and pay attention to what is going on inside.

From what I can find out, KREME and similar products are old generation formulations and totally incompatible with modern fuels. They should be withdrawn from the market - but of course, why would a company blow-up its own product if people are still buying it?

EDIT: I spoke to a radiator shop here when I was researching liners and they told me that they do a brisk business getting KREME and other old-style liner materials out of bike tanks. The problem is that in removing the liner, they WILL destroy any paint that is on the tank.

Pete

 

[cra-z1]

EDIT: I spoke to a radiator shop here when I was researching liners and they told me that they do a brisk business getting KREME and other old-style liver materials out of bike tanks. The problem is that in removing the liner, they WILL destroy any paint that is on the tank.

Pete

And in the case of the early tanks it will eat away at the sealing ring for the gas cap.

 

[bigmark0272]

Hey @bigmark0272 ! Welcome the the forum.
Care to tell us what brought you here? You have motorcycles or XS650's? Work in the chemical industry?
Sorry but i can't help doing this; the guy who spent 300 words telling us how smart and educated he is, double posted his first forum entry.............

All of what you say seems right but like said above a used motorcycle gas tank interior is going to be "pretty clean" at best.
I've got one now with a partially failed liner but whatever that liner is, even MEK won't soften it, so I'm kinda stuck on my next course of action. Since it's a straight original 70's British tank I have a strong desire to use it on the bike it was on.
Kinda like toglhot I seldom line but it's certainly an option for tanks that have been rusty then chemically or electrically cleaned but may have seams, low areas where a thickening, reenforcing layer seems like a good idea.

Actually I was gonna post a picture but I haven't bothered with taking any to replace the ones lost when my hard drive crashed. I have a few bikes but I would up here funny enough from a Google search if lye (sodium hydroxide) would remove... tank liner as I can't find paint stripper with methylene chloride anywhere and got to reading posts. My favorite bike is the one I have to strip, not due to failure, because I had an anal cranal inversion when I installed it. Tank was dented when I bought it and new one is $2800 so when pulling I made hole and trust me when I tell you tank metal is alot thinner than u think. But it's a 127hp 140ftlb 780# 08 VTX1800 f3. But it slipped my mind when dealing it (please learn from my F up) to blow back thru the breather tube while liner still wet. So first hour summer day it expanded and popped my patch panel. But I have resorted to using #2 heading oil/acetone mix and lighting it on fire to remove it. But adding insult to injury the KBS sealer is being a real bastard, LoL!!!!

 

[bigmark0272]

Actually I was gonna post pictures but I haven't bothered with taking any to replace the ones lost when my hard drive crashed. I have a few bikes but I wound up here funny enough from a Google search if lye (sodium hydroxide) would remove... tank liner as I can't find paint stripper with methylene chloride anywhere and got to reading posts. My favorite bike is the one I have to strip, not due to failure, because I had an anal cranal inversion when I installed it. Tank was dented when I bought it and new one is $2800 so when pulling I made hole and trust me when I tell you tank metal is alot thinner than u think. But it's a 127hp 140ftlb 780# 08 VTX1800 f3. But it slipped my mind when dealing it (please learn from my F up) to blow back thru the breather tube while liner still wet. So first hour summer day it expanded and popped my patch panel. But I have resorted to using #2 heading oil/acetone mix and lighting it on fire to remove it. But adding insult to injury the KBS sealer is being a real bastard, LoL!!!!

 

[bigmark0272]

Hey @bigmark0272 ! Welcome the the forum.
Care to tell us what brought you here? You have motorcycles or XS650's? Work in the chemical industry?
Sorry but i can't help doing this; the guy who spent 300 words telling us how smart and educated he is, double posted his first forum entry.............

All of what you say seems right but like said above a used motorcycle gas tank interior is going to be "pretty clean" at best.
I've got one now with a partially failed liner but whatever that liner is, even MEK won't soften it, so I'm kinda stuck on my next course of action. Since it's a straight original 70's British tank I have a strong desire to use it on the bike it was on.
Kinda like toglhot I seldom line but it's certainly an option for tanks that have been rusty then chemically or electrically cleaned but may have seams, low areas where a thickening, reenforcing layer seems like a good idea.

Well u can do what I did if you don't have an issue with repainting the tank. Mix #2 heating oil (off road diesel the same shit) kerosene & little bit of acetone. I like using couple hands full of bb's also as it aerates mixture giving longer burn. It will get most off but depending on which product was used could have some left. For that I used lye & water. Be careful lye will tear your ass up. Wear nitrile gloves, long sleeve shirt or welding sleeves, a gator and goggles to be safe. Be sure to let it stay until it's done doing what it's gonna do. I gently rotated mine to get complete coverage.