Clutch Case Leak

Tristan530

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I have really become disheartened and regret buying the 1970 XS650 I did on Ebay. What was supposed to have been a restored bike was done with what seems to be little care, or more specifically done but no time taken to see if adjustments needed to be made or things redone. From what I can tell from the guy I bought the bike from, he started it only a few times and took it for one short "test ride." I should have known the trouble I was getting into when the bike arrived and I noticed leaking fork seal and small pools of oil on the engine case. Things have just got more complicated and the guy I bought the bike from won't even bother to reply to my emails now ask for advice.

Latest issue is oil leaking from the bottom of the clutch case. I got the cover off (which was a task in itself) and see that a liquid seal was used in addition to a usual "paper" gasket. My question is does the fact that both a paper gasket and liquid gasket was used tell me there was a leak that the seller knew about that would not be prevent by a paper gasket alone?

The guy I bought the bike from seemed real upfront and a general good guy. Seems that he didn't give me the full story on the "restoration." And other than an initial apology for the significant leaks on the cylinder head and seam, has given no indication of taking more responsibility for the problems (that I am not all skilled to handle myself and must go pay a shop to do).

I suppose that if I look at the bright side, this latest problem will give me an opportunity to polish the case before putting it back on.

Should I just go ahead and put on a new paper gasket together with a liquid gasket? Appreciate any advice.
 

gggGary

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The bottom of that cover has engine oil in it when the bike is parked. The normal assembly is cover, gasket sealer, gasket, a bit of oil or grease, crankcase.
The factory also dabbed a bit of sealer inside the gasket where the crankcase top and bottom halves meet front and rear. The lower cover bolts should have copper washers also. Clean is paramount. both engine and cover flanges need to be spotless. Getting the kickstart shaft, springs, spacers aranged just right so the cover closes is a bit of a trick on the 70's, Check fit sans gasket to be sure the cover is flat, the front and rear pins have enough room to seat, etc.
All the usual suspects chime in here about that cover and leaks. https://www.xs650.com/threads/rh-cover-leak.51364/
I'll repeat advice there; resist the temptation to slather on silicone seal. A thin coat of sealer will either work, or not, adding a wad of glop WILL NOT HELP and can cause other SERIOUS internal engine issues down the line.
PS welcome aboard. All 50 year motorcycles are labors of love. Even from the factory they weren't get on and ride 20K with zero issues.

There are some rewarding days also. ;^)
KIMG1469.JPG
 
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Adamc

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The guy I bought the bike from seemed real upfront and a general good guy. Seems that he didn't give me the full story on the "restoration." And other than an initial apology for the significant leaks on the cylinder head and seam, has given no indication of taking more responsibility for the problems (that I am not all skilled to handle myself and must go pay a shop to do).
Hi Tristan,
Welcome to this wonderful place of skill and knowledge (unless you are me who has little of either).

All car & bike traders seem to be up front and honest; like your best mate would be!
Take them all with a pinch of salt, as they just want a sale at the end of the day.

Like you I purchased a 'recent restoration' bike (done by an ex-F1 mechanic no less) from a 'nice' dealer.
I knew he was lying however as I'd seen the bike over 15 years before at another dealer, but couldn't buy it at that time.

Bike arrived, ran very poorly. Parked up overnight and it spewed fuel and oil out of every orifice seal!
My journey then started with The Welsh Flat Tracker Revival on this forum; which you could look up.
I ended up doing a full seal replacement and carb re-build to get it usable; this took months and money.
However my bike did end up as a winner in our XS650 Forum Calendar! So it was worth the effort.
All done with help from the good folks here.
I have now fully stripped it again for a full Moto-Gadget rewire (I know I'm nuts!).

Good luck with the work and keep us informed with lots of pictures.
Ads.:devil:
 

Tristan530

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Thanks guys.

I really do think the seller was honest but failed in this case to do his due diligence. If he would have said "The buyer is going to need to put in time and effort (and possibly additional costs) to fine tune, make adjustments, check my restoration work." He might not have sold the bike to someone like me. He claims to have restored and sold multiple early year XS650s. I unfortunately may have gotten the one that he didn't put enough time into (multiple loose bolts/nuts, tach cable fell off on first ride, chain slapping around as it wasn't adjusted, tank and chain guard rattling around because old, dried and cracked rubbers weren't replaced, a missing bolt on seat hinge, front brake not adjusted so fully pulled it started rolling down the ramp of the shipper when unloading, etc.,.)

In any case, some follow up questions. Is a "gasket sealer" the same as "liquid gasket?" A buddy of mine with a 1972 Honda CB750 gave me a tube of "Hondabond 4, semi-drying liquid gasket." Can I use this stuff? This is it here - https://www.amazon.com/Honda-08717-1194-Original-Equipment-Manufacturer/dp/B0083BWULK/ref=sr_1_4?crid=XKAIECMYMBZE&keywords=hondabond+4&qid=1660338758&sprefix=hondabond,aps,133&sr=8-4
Or should I be looking for something different?

Also, when I pulled the cover off, a large washer and a "thrust bearing" (https://www.yamahapartsnation.com/oemparts/a/yam/500416d6f8700209bc784944/starter - #9 in the diagram here) dropped in the oil pan I was using. Is it safe to assume that the large washer also came off the kick starter shaft and it's the washer that should be against the oil seal and not the bearing that should be flush with the oil seal?

The washer looks like the #6 spacer but the kick start spring did not come off the kick start shaft, and I see that the spacer is still behind the spring, so where does this washer/spacer belong?
 

gggGary

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Hondabond Yamabond are fine and prolly the same thing, my goto is Hylomar Blue but those will work.

Yes the early kickstart has both the washer and the thrust bearing.

The ever helpful Partzilla parts pages present this
1660341142655.png


Parts list here
https://www.partzilla.com/catalog/yamaha/motorcycle/1970/xs1/starter
#9 is the thrust bearing.
The pic also shows a revised version. in the upper corner.
 

Tristan530

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Thanks gggGary,

So #20 is the washer? Where does the washer go? Against the oil seal? Or does the thrust bearing go against the oil seal and the washer against the spring guide (#8)? BTW, there was no circlip as shown in # 21.
 

gggGary

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I think you have the early version not the later one up in the RH corner.
This was in mine. #9 is the bearing, the (a) washer #6 would be inboard of the spring.
1660345416375.png



Some early bike threads. They may help you along the way. The one Dakota thread is a work in progress, part way through a fork rebuild, some pics of how to's and a couple special tools I made, to come.
https://www.xs650.com/threads/one-dakota-xs1-fix-restore-labor-of-love.62113/
This one may be of special interest to you... https://www.xs650.com/threads/were-off-to-see-the-wizard.61487/
https://www.xs650.com/threads/wjl-aka-wrenchjohns-legacy-70-xs1-in-ggggarys-hands.55909/
 

5twins

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On the later models anyway, sometimes there was an extra washer fitted on the end of the kicker shaft not shown in the drawings. It was fitted on an "as needed" basis, if there was too much in-out play on the shaft after the cover was installed. It wouldn't surprise me if the early models sometimes had one as well. I would temporarily fit the cover back on with just the radial bearing and not that washer, then push/pull on the kicker shaft to check it's in/out play. If you've got lots, I'd say that's where the washer was.
 

gggGary

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On the later models anyway, sometimes there was an extra washer fitted on the end of the kicker shaft not shown in the drawings. It was fitted on an "as needed" basis, if there was too much in-out play on the shaft after the cover was installed. It wouldn't surprise me if the early models sometimes had one as well. I would temporarily fit the cover back on with just the radial bearing and not that washer, then push/pull on the kicker shaft to check it's in/out play. If you've got lots, I'd say that's where the washer was.
Thnx for the jog 5twins!
I think I had the same issue as @Tristan530 when I brought SoDak home, cover was leaking badly and there (may have been) that extra washer in there. It's assembled and full of oil now, no leaks, but it hasn't been started yet.
 

Tristan530

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On the later models anyway, sometimes there was an extra washer fitted on the end of the kicker shaft not shown in the drawings. It was fitted on an "as needed" basis, if there was too much in-out play on the shaft after the cover was installed. It wouldn't surprise me if the early models sometimes had one as well. I would temporarily fit the cover back on with just the radial bearing and not that washer, then push/pull on the kicker shaft to check it's in/out play. If you've got lots, I'd say that's where the washer was.
Thanks 5twins

And the washer would go on the outside of the bearing (next to the oil seal)?
 

Tristan530

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52 year Old bikes do tend to have problems, regardless of who put them together.
Understood toglhot.

But if you are going to sell a bike as restored (which would mitigate a number of problems with a bike being 52 years old) shouldn't you check your work? I am coming across issues that the seller would have easily found with doing his due diligence. And the seller told me this is what he does, restore XS650s.
 

Jan_P

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Understood toglhot.

But if you are going to sell a bike as restored (which would mitigate a number of problems with a bike being 52 years old) shouldn't you check your work? I am coming across issues that the seller would have easily found with doing his due diligence. And the seller told me this is what he does, restore XS650s.

Not in my mind ..New is new from factory ..everything tightened painted under clean supervised conditions. factory spec environment .
Once that is changed .. Cases opened work done ..everything can happen more or less
There are better and worse refurbishments .. Restores ...Clowns are trying to make a buck .But it all comes down to that the expected life span of the motorcycle was around 10 years .. Everything longer than that means more maintenance and work and oily fingers.
One can keep these bikes running if one is willing to do the work ..but it is a hobby where the cost of time and tools is not in the balance sheet

As Mr gggG said you cant buy yourself into a perfect running XS 650 you'll be broke before that. Look around what other 50 years old things are around and still working without some problems.

Now that is the technical side of it ..The price and what has been promised .is another. Back in the day there was the word
" Everything is renewed" ---which not always was true then or Now. No one is going to split the motor to se if there are new pistons and so on

When it comes to the side cover it is not a paper gasket the last ones I have seen and I put Permatex on both sides of it
And tighten it gradually .. cross pattern and finally to the right torque.
I have tried to reduce the .. Permatex and ended up having to do it over again .. I dont like that.
 

5twins

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Well, I don't know, if someone is selling me something that is "restored", I don't think I should be finding half the nuts and bolts on the thing loose, lol. Sure, there may be a little thing here and there that got overlooked but this one sounds a bit excessive.
 

Tristan530

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Continuing questions guys.

What's the trick to get the kickstarter seal fully seated (down to the small ridge inside the chamber)? Just pushing down on it with my thumbs don't seem to be doing the trick. I thought about getting a large drive socket on top of it and hammering down on it, but will this just end up deforming the seal?
 

Jim

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Yes, get a socket "just" slightly smaller than the seal. I just measured the seal recess and it's about 1.37" in dia.
A socket about a tenth of an inch smaller would be perfect to tap it into place.
There shouldn't be any worries about deforming the seal. If you have to "tap" it that hard, something else is wrong.
 
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