Cracked Frame

[Smuggy]

Hi guys,

So after much procrastination and life getting in the way, I have taken the plunge to fully overhaul my XS. With my carbs being super rough, and having a hole in the left carb body, I ordered a new pair along with a new ignition, wiring harness and some miscellaneous pieces.

My mission today was to clean the chain and paint strip the left crankcase, so I could polish it, but I discovered a big crack on the frame close to the crank case (my fault for not checking out the bike properly when I bought it as I was buying it from an acquaintance). I always remember the words Raymond once told me, that everything is fixable, but my question is, is this something that is fixable, or more specifically, is it something that is worth trying to get fixed. I don't personally have the equipment or skills to weld the frame myself, so would need to get a professional to this job. Apologies for the poor lighting, I can get better pictures tomorrow in the day if needed:

Thanks in advance,
Smuggy

 

[motormike]

It can be welded..... but you'll have to strip the frame bare... with the idea that the welder can bench it and properly do the job. So... expense Vs return-hassles. I have never seen a Xs frame crack... Do you know what happened.... someone jump the ramp and missed... a broken engine bolt.. will cause excessive vibs and cause this type of damage.

 

[GLJ]

That looks familiar. My XS2 frame was cracked on the left side like yours. I v'd and welded the sides. On the top I plated it.

Also had to fix a small problem at the bottom of the frame. It's all fixable. I have almost 11,000 smiles on the frame repair.

 

[Jan_P]

With all respect to GLJ who knows a lot

Not Possible to repair there I assume
Welding per se is possible but the crack is there because a large tensile stress and or defects
( Is this the bike wit a Suzuki front end that crack can be a result of a hit sideways on the rear wheel left to right )

It is a fairly large dimension so if one should try a weld repair some kind of preparation cutting a notch or so
The welder cannot be a hack
There is a bearing close the bushing . It is seating in that will most likely distort upon welding
that can be machined afterwards but is not desirable.

If it was a rare valuable machine it would be done but we are talking a large amount of work and dismantling
Notch preparation and perhaps fixtures machining and still a large risk it will crack again
Adding to that it is dangerous riding with weld repairs in highly stressed regions

What I have seen here on the Forum about frame prices another frame would be the way forward

Secondly If a cheap crashed frame is available One could consider cutting out the cracked region
and replace that region

Cutting it about where the picture is cut 1 o clock and somewhere near the exhaust mounting point below
You know there is less stress since the dimensions are smaller and one can insert pipes inside for support
Still a lot of work and probably better with a replacement frame

A quick googling e -bay indicating $ 3 -4 500 US -- Nowhere close that with a few shop hours a $ 100
Unless you do it yourself

 

[jetmechmarty]

What I have seen here on the Forum about frame prices another frame would be the way forward

This one is in South Africa. I'd be surprised if a replacement frame was easy to come by.

 

[Jan_P]

Hardtail an Option ??

https://xs650chopper.com/xs650-hardtail/

 

[Kevin Werner]

I am a half assed welder, gravel pit and crusher eqipment. Anything CAN be welded(except wood). Balance the experts that have replied above with you welder supply guy. Those guys have some good info. First check the frame for alignment. One post above mentioned a hard lateral hit that could result in all sorts of alignment issues.

 

[Smuggy]

That looks familiar. My XS2 frame was cracked on the left side like yours

Yeah it looks like the exact crack, I actually recall reading that you repaired a crack frame, so will dig through your posts.

This one is in South Africa. I'd be surprised if a replacement frame was easy to come by.

jetmechmarty you are correct, it's my biggest concern right now, and shipping an entirely new frame is going to cost as much as the bike more than likely. There is only one place in SA that might just have a frame, called the "Bike Hospital":

Jan_P - thanks so much for the great post, and all the information. You have a great memory, this is the bike with the Suzuki front end, and based on all of the information I have no doubt that this bike must have been in a crash at some point in its life that cause the front-end modifications and replacement, and the cracked frame confirms that.

The crack is a wide area. If I don't come right with the Bike Hospital then I have no choice but to see what a frame specialist thinks/will charge. I am feeling a bit deflated, I always knew rebuilding one of these in South Africa would be tricky, but I had no idea just how difficult. I bought the bike to ride but also to learn how to work on them, and no better excuse to completely strip the bike down and do a complete rebuild.

I will keep you guys updated with the progress; I appreciate all the advice. Who knows, perhaps I will completely lose my mind and ship a Rickman frame

 

[Jan_P]

OK well life i full of Compromises .. It happens that fixing things must be done in a way that is not the first choice.
We have signals here that GLJ has welded.
It can be a solution .Labor costs can be different in South Africa and some people are magicians at their profession.
You have mining industry so there should be skilled welders. Somewhere.
If the bike is not used for Off road / Hot rod Dynamic riding more like a "Gentleman Ride "
Someone out there has the Knowledge if it is a working solution.

Worth mention is that the welding sometimes can be performed without disassembly ..
And in this case some of it would best be done before --- tacking at least -- so it don't distort .to much so assembly gets difficult.
Wet rags and sheet metal protection around ..

thinking out loud one weld on the outside engine still in and swing in place.
Then remove the swing and chain --- still with the engine in frame.
Perhaps the "Magician " Welder have room enough to do it getting enough access from the Inside. # 4
This is an object than can be tilted and lifted. Wooden blocks or so ..
Getting a horizontal Position for the melt .. . So I would ask around what the Pros Think.

Looking at GLJ s Picture it is not necessary so that Bike has taken a Hit.
The crack appears to run at the edge of the weld HAZ Heat affected zone ( Second picture ) ..Which not is uncommon
The pipe ( Bushing ) is Stiff So upon cooling .. melt solidifying it wont give pipe ( Bushing ) causing a local stress at the edge
That by time in combination with other forces has driven the crack. Sometimes it can come directly if done badly.
If so the prospects for weld repair gets better.
The right weld procedure .the skilled welder and the right filler material. That is better now 30 - 40 years later.
Perhaps is doable after all. I have to back down a bit.

More pictures and Info if it is a Box construction or solid piece of steel. A box ( Most likely by the looks of it.) makes it even better for a repair if one can get access. Both sides.
perhaps still not the first choice but after more thought can be good enough .talk to the Pros.
I have worked with people that i believe could do it.

 

[Raymond]

. . . I always remember the words Raymond once told me, that everything is fixable . . .

Did I say that? Well, it must be true then. But gotta agree with Jan_P, 'It happens that fixing things must be done in a way that is not the first choice.'

But there's a few options on the table. A skilled welder, preferably one who understands bikes and how critical it is to keep the frame aligned and make the repair strong enough. That Jo-burg bike hospital might have something? But sometimes, people have taken a crashed or broken bike as an opportunity - maybe a special with the XS motor sitting in another frame. Rickman would be fabulous but expensive option.

As long as you don't need the bike urgently as your daily commute, you can take your time, have a think, talk to a few people. Talk to us lot. You meet a lot of interesting people when you set out on repairing or modifying a bike.

Now, what about an XS engined Norton featherbed special?

Actually, that's been done: https://www.returnofthecaferacers.com/yamaha-motorcycle-cafe-racer/1972-xs2-kott-motorcycles/

 

[gggGary]

What year is the bike? Cracking in that area seems to be an early bike thing, especially 72-73?. If it's an early motor, check the crankcase around the rear motor mounts, also a known crack/failure area, before deciding on a path forward. Know the full extent of damages before spending big dollars.

 

[jetmechmarty]

What year is the bike? Cracking in that area seems to be an early bike thing, especially 72-73?.

Smuggy bought an XS-2. We've all slept since then.

 

[Smuggy]

But this bike looks like a good basis to start with. And if there are unexpected problems, anything can be fixed.

Sorry Raymond, I misquoted you slightly, but almost correct, and I agree, if you said it then surely it must be true I like the idea of the featherbed Norton, the work in the link you sent is phenomenal. I don't need the bike as a commuter, and I will likely pick up something more modern as a weekend warrior so I can turn this old girl into a proper project bike.

Marty you are correct I bought an XS2 bitsa of note.

We've all slept since then.

- I know I know it has been far too long, and time to get my hands dirty.

@Jan_P again thanks for the writeup, I have reached out to the bike hospital, and there is another source that might have a frame so just chasing those up. Otherwise I think your approach to how it can be welded is great, and although GLJ is a wizard when it comes to bringing old bikes back to life, I am sure there is someone here up to the task.

check the crankcase around the rear motor mounts, also a known crack/failure area, before deciding on a path forward. Know the full extent of damages before spending big dollars.

Thanks Gary, I will check the crankcase as well for cracks, hopefully no more bad news *crosses fingers*.

More pictures and Info if it is a Box construction or solid piece of steel.

I will get more pictures for sure, last night looking into the crack it looked like a solid piece of steel, but I will double check today after work.

take your time, have a think, talk to a few people. Talk to us lot. You meet a lot of interesting people when you set out on repairing or modifying a bike.

I spend a lot of time on here reading, not understanding, reading again, still not understanding and then reading for a few more hours until things start to make sense. I really appreciate the community that exists here and feel proud to be a part of it, and look forward to learning a bit more along this journey; in hopes I can one day help out another new home garage mechanic that fell in love with the XS650 like I did. Thanks for everything you guys do

 

[Raymond]

It's very flattering the credit you give this on-line forum, but if you get out there, bound to be a good community of metal workers, fabricators, engineers, blacksmiths, bike breakers, customisers, engine builders. People that will chat, discuss your problem, well, the bike's problem, recommend somebody that can help, tell you, uhm, where to go, as it were.

 

[Hudriwudri]

Hi there,

In my opinion (as ex G6 Tig weldor and by now IWE ) I'm.quite positive it can be fixed by some experienced Tig weldor (at least that's what I would use) giving correct procedures and welding rod material.
In case some more info is needed/wanted i will try to have a closer look during the x-mas holidays).
All the best and season greetings
Christian

 

[Jim]

I'll throw my two cents in here.....
I would not hesitate to weld it up. V the crack out, keep the swingarm in place (and tight) as a jig of sorts and take a TIG to it.
A good welder will know how to proceed across the crack to minimize the distortion.

 

[Hudriwudri]

@Jim
Along those lines were my thoughts.
First off i could not imagine that mama Yamaha used any hi tensile alloys on the frames so I reckon haz hardening or excessive strain due to welding induced tensions is somewhat negligible.
Furthermore if correct settings are used i do not even think that v-preparation would be necessary although will make penetration somewhat more calculable.
In doing i would tack the thing every 1" than it can not move nowhere and due to mild steel frame tension should be no real issue.
I would for safeties reason try to use some welding rods with a raised percentage of fine grain builders like manganese etc. but as I'm located in Europe i would not know right of now without looking the proper Us/AWS number but assume something of the likes like ER70-S2 (S3)?

Good luck welding a d season greetings

Christian

 

[GLJ]

I used a MIG when I welded mine. I had the swingarm tube and end seals installed with the bolt tight. Also had empty cases installed in the frame as I also had to repair the lower part of the frame. I did plate the top of the crack. The sides just a small Vee. As said above it's mild steel nothing fancy. Does not have to be a world class welder to do it, just competent. I am a barely competent welder and the repair has held up just fine under normal use.

 

[Kevin Werner]

Did anyone mention to drill each end of the Crack before starting?

 

[Smuggy]

@Hudriwudri, @GLJ and @Jim

Thanks for the great advice guys and Season's Greetings. I will be sure to include these in the conversations I have with the welder. It definitely seems like a viable solution. It would be great to keep a matching frame and engine. I considered renting welding equipment, but I don't think this is the job to learn on.

If that avenue fails which now seems unlikely, the Bike Hospital got back to me. They had this frame below. I am not entirely sure what this even is to be honest. They wanted a $150 dollars but it doesn't look like the correct frame/bike even. I sent them the range of engine numbers they should be looking for. I am thinking of making a trip up early Jan to see what XS parts I can find, place looks like paradise, but will see how the wallet looks after Christmas. Have a great Christmas all, will update soon.