Did you regret ditching your points ignition for something "more reliable?"

[CaptCardboard]

I'm gearing up to go through my ignition system and clean things up a bit from the previous owner and I'd like some advice. I'm adding up the cost of new points, condenser, plug wires, and a dwell meter, and it wouldn't be financially crushing to just spend a bit more on the Boyer digital ignition kit... But is it worth it?
I like the thought of not having to mess with timing or adjusting points ever again, but the process of adjusting timing and points isn't something that's gonna ruin my day. What does ruin my day is not being able to run my bike and not being able to find out why. Will a digital/electronic ignition like the Boyer make a noticeable difference in how a bike runs and starts compared to a maintained points ignition? Is it really a set and forget system?

I'm also really only interested in the ignition system, and not going with a PMA like Vape or Hugh's..... Unless there's a really compelling argument for it, I'm greatly deterred by the added heat from dumping 180+ watts into a system when I'm only running a headlight and tail light without any other electric components.
I mostly just ride in the city on my way to and from work. Maybe a dozen miles per day. Often sitting at lights for 2-3 cycles before traffic finally lets me through in the afternoons. I used to rely on a bike for all of my transportation needs and desires. I have a van now so I don't need my bike, but I'd hate to waste a nice day!

I'd appreciate reading what, how and where you ride to know more about your take on points vs something else!

 

[Jan_P]

Points is a source of problems
But if you are comfortable with keeping those updated and good I think Boyer is not so much better
Had two of them Red and Blue Box
Bike ran well on points stock exhaust and Air Filters --- very good
The deal breaker so to speak is when the advance unit is getting worn
You can get troubles if it does not retard ignition at stoplights ---stalling
Last time I checked it was expensive to replace.

Dwell meter not used it for close to 40 years

Boyer can be sensitive for Voltage out of range .So a better regulator is more or less necessary
But low Voltage on points is also giving troubles starting

 

[Jim]

For the miles you're talking about, you'll be setting the points about once a year... during spring wakeup ideally. That wouldn't be a deal breaker for me. Point's have several advantages. The main one being it's two completely independent (electrically) ignitions systems. If one fails while you're out and about, you can limp home on one cylinder. That's come in handy more than once. The other big advantage is simplicity. It's a stone age simple system.

The advantage of an electronic iggy is it's set and forget. That and you can run a lower resistance coil for a hotter spark. That will get you easier starting.

For the riding you describe, I'd stick with points. But that's just my opinion.

 

[CaptCardboard]

Easier starting is pretty attractive. I'm averaging prolly 6-8 kicks to get my bike started in the morning, and again to get on my way home. But I also haven't done much to adjust my points, only checked the gap. I imagine I could make some improvements there with a little tinkering even with points.
Jan_P, you mentioned you haven't used a dwell meter in years. Jim was kind enough to link me with a couple helpful YouTube tutorials on static and dynamic points adjustments, dynamic showing the use of a dwell meter. Do you use a different method, or has it been so long for you because you've ditched points and have no use for such malarkey?

 

[member43148]

Your XS should kick start up in 1 to 3 kicks.
The “state of tune” can be improved to achieve the ease of kick starting.
Don’t blame the ignition system just yet.
And I also agree that the security of having a stock points system can “get you home” instead of having a dead XS in Portland somewhere.. (scary)

 

[Jim]

points adjustments, dynamic showing the use of a dwell meter. Do you use a different method, or has it been so long for you because you've ditched points and have no use for such malarkey?

Jus' so we're on the same page...

When the points close, current flows into the coil, charging it. Opening the points discharges the secondary across the plug. The amount of time the coil charges is called dwell... measured in degrees of crank rotation. About 90° on our engines iirc.

Having too much dwell causes excess current draw and makes the coil run hot, shortening it's life.
Not enough dwell means the coil won't completely charge at high rpm... just not enough time.
So it's a balancing act. Setting the points gap will get you in the ballpark, a dwell meter will get you spot on. Both methods work, one's better than the other.

 

[CaptCardboard]

Thanks, Jim!
I had a general idea of the mechanics of the gap and dwell, but you explained it wonderfully. I pretty well figured static adjustments would be "good enough." I just feel if I'm gonna stick with points, I'm going to commit to the effort and do the best I can with the right equipment.
I only have two prior experiences with points systems. One being a '69 Ford Falcon that my dad taught me how to set with a matchbook and always ran fine. The other being a '73 Honda CL350 that never ran right no matter what I did and tricked me into believing that any adjustments even a micron out of alignment would bring hours of frustrating troubleshooting. Maybe I need to read "Zen and The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" again.

 

[Jim]

 

[member43148]

Timing Light timing confirmation !

 

[CaptCardboard]

Timing Light timing confirmation !

Also on my list of tools to buy!

 

[Jan_P]

Easier starting is pretty attractive. I'm averaging prolly 6-8 kicks to get my bike started in the morning, and again to get on my way home. But I also haven't done much to adjust my points, only checked the gap. I imagine I could make some improvements there with a little tinkering even with points.
Jan_P, you mentioned you haven't used a dwell meter in years. Jim was kind enough to link me with a couple helpful YouTube tutorials on static and dynamic points adjustments, dynamic showing the use of a dwell meter. Do you use a different method, or has it been so long for you because you've ditched points and have no use for such malarkey?

Back in the day .I did not know they existed at all
And some experienced professional Auto mechs Used their hearing for the fine tuning 4 cylinder VOLVOs and so
Throttle response .
As did motorcyclists
Still can see it -- hearing used --- for Twin SU carburetor setting on VOLVO PV 544 on TV shows. Wheeler Dealers

With time one gets a feel for how it sounds -- starts -- acts --throttle response
Or at least imagine you can.
I used strobe light -- If difficult to start .Redo it -- Kick back try something else small adjustments
I never have owned anything else than worn bikes.

Kick starting ..After adjusting the points and ignition timing you can try
3 priming kicks full choke ignition off don't need to be full force
Switch on Ignition and go for it.

 

[5twins]

If you're going to stick with points then I would get a dwell meter. It's the best way to set the gap, and the only accurate way to gap used points. The first time I changed some points many years ago, I couldn't get a peep out of them. Ended up having to put the old set back in. Well, it turns out I contaminated the new points by failing to wipe the oil off my feeler gauge before I gapped them. With a dwell meter, you don't get a feeler gauge anywhere near the points so that issue goes away.

I've had the factory points set-ups for many years on my old BMW R bikes and quite like them. But, it's a much simpler single points set-up and very high quality. The 650's dual points set-up is much more complicated and can be a real pain to get dialed in perfectly. They have come out with a single points conversion and I thought that was great, but it has issues. The new cam often isn't machined perfectly so the cylinders don't fire when they should. Also, the 650 points set wasn't designed for or intended to do double duty like this so it can wear faster. So, I thought this was the greatest thing since sliced bread, until these issues cropped up. I only ran it for a few hundred miles before I switched to a Pamco. I checked the timing before I pulled the points system and it had already changed.

 

[Its been a long time]

This is a topic I'm really conflicted over at the moment. The XS650 ignition system never was wonderful and nearly 50 years later it isn't getting any better. As documented elsewhere here, I'm working on a XS650D non runner bringing it back from the dead. I'm 95% of the way there but checking the ignition system revealed a few issues. Firstly the auto advance unit rod was installed 180 degrees out, it would have never run. The advance rod was bone dry and needed lubricating. The auto advance unit springs, at least one was over stretched and needed replacing. Setting the static timing, I can't quite get enough retard on the right cylinder. Checks have not shown why, I'll just live with it for now. Retarded timing on the right cylinder remains slightly advanced. Fitted new leads, plugs, points, condensers, plug caps. The coils measure OK. The kill switch was not working properly and I'm waiting on a couple of small springs to fix it properly. There's around 0.8v drop between the battery and the coils, seems to be due to general 47 year deterioration in the crimps/bullets causing the drop. This week I'm fitting a relay to get battery voltage to the coils. That's about as good as I can make the ignition system. I hope that helps the OP with his set up.

Points v Aftermarket electronic ignition? There's no simple answer. I remain to be convinced that aftermarket systems are good enough quality to resist the heat and vibration of an XS650 motor.

But having said that, the quality of all ignition system components like points, condensers, coils, leads is probably worse now than in the 1970's because most of them are now Chinese. I did manage to buy a set of Daiichi points which are good quality, but it's getting harder, more expensive and more difficult as time goes by.

Hope that helps a bit. I can't make my mind up either. For now, I want to get the bike running on it's points and see how it goes. Then decide what to do.

 

[5twins]

I ran the points for the first 4 years I had my 650, about 6K miles with the original dual points set-up, then about a thousand more with the single points set-up. Back then (2005-2008), the good Daiichi points were still pretty easy to get, and setting the gaps with the dwell meter was relatively easy. The difficult part was matching both the points gap and timing between cylinders. That could be a trying ordeal, lol. I even threw in the towel a couple of times and called it close enough. But it was possible, just not easy. You are basically dealing with two separate little ignition systems. You set them individually then you must match them to each other. That's why I thought the single points cam would be a great improvement, except mine wasn't machined accurately. It's a dual lobe cam and the two lobes should fire the points exactly 180° apart. Well, mine didn't, lol, so the timing between the cylinders didn't match. Set one cylinder to fire on the "F" mark and the other was off. Set the other cylinder to fire correctly and that threw the first one off. Well, I finally did "fix" it by spending an afternoon grinding, filing, and sanding the approach ramp on the lobe that fired 1st (early), until it fired at the same time as the other lobe.

But then fate intervened. Pamcopete sent me an early version of his then "new" ignition to test and review. I've been running it ever since and it's never missed a beat. That's a good 16 years now so that's pretty reliable if you ask me. Being an early version, it uses the original mechanical advance as well, and that's held up fine too. But I do keep it and the advance rod well lubed. It showed signs of wear but they've not progressed any further since I do maintain it well.

 

[Its been a long time]

OP might be interested in this ignition system, picture below. As far as I can tell the entire ignition system is on the backplate there's no seperate igniter box that I can see. Looks to me like it uses the standard auto advance unit. It's from a UK seller, I don't know any more than that.

But it's an alternative to the Boyer and the Newtronics systems that seem widely used here in the UK.

How reliable this ignition system is, I can't say. Any experience here of them? The brand appears to be Pipes n Stuff and they have a Facebook page.

 

[jaybar6]

This is a topic I'm really conflicted over at the moment. The XS650 ignition system never was wonderful and nearly 50 years later it isn't getting any better. As documented elsewhere here, I'm working on a XS650D non runner bringing it back from the dead. I'm 95% of the way there but checking the ignition system revealed a few issues. Firstly the auto advance unit rod was installed 180 degrees out, it would have never run. The advance rod was bone dry and needed lubricating. The auto advance unit springs, at least one was over stretched and needed replacing. Setting the static timing, I can't quite get enough retard on the right cylinder. Checks have not shown why, I'll just live with it for now. Retarded timing on the right cylinder remains slightly advanced. Fitted new leads, plugs, points, condensers, plug caps. The coils measure OK. The kill switch was not working properly and I'm waiting on a couple of small springs to fix it properly. There's around 0.8v drop between the battery and the coils, seems to be due to general 47 year deterioration in the crimps/bullets causing the drop. This week I'm fitting a relay to get battery voltage to the coils. That's about as good as I can make the ignition system. I hope that helps the OP with his set up.

Points v Aftermarket electronic ignition? There's no simple answer. I remain to be convinced that aftermarket systems are good enough quality to resist the heat and vibration of an XS650 motor.

But having said that, the quality of all ignition system components like points, condensers, coils, leads is probably worse now than in the 1970's because most of them are now Chinese. I did manage to buy a set of Daiichi points which are good quality, but it's getting harder, more expensive and more difficult as time goes by.

Hope that helps a bit. I can't make my mind up either. For now, I want to get the bike running on it's points and see how it goes. Then decide what to do.

In my apocalypse now mode, I thought having a spare set of new, points, condenser, coils, leads, spark-plugs, etc., I would survive the horrors of existence within a dead world because it so cheap to have these things and carry all that around with me.



Like Mr Adams in a video of his on YouTube, I recently watched. where he swapped out an ignition coil by the side of the road, taping it to the side panel, on his moto guzzi elderado. Or tom cruise in the film war of the worlds. Where a “simple minded mechanic” says: “nothing works everything is dead”, tom cruise replies “try changing the solenoids”. Of course it works and he is the only one in the world who has a working vehicle because tom cruise is a “know it all” Sycilo.



So is it better to have the mechanical system or electronics? I swapped it out 20 years ago and have had no trouble (at least not electrical) up to present. I changed, all at the same time: the battery, boyerbranson electronic box, and the recommended coils, new leads ngk caps and plugs.



Psychologically, is it the cost difference, or the mechanical system is easier to understand than a electronic box. In the apocalyptic theme why not have a second electronic box under your seat to swap out, so buy two (I have not lol).



What I don’t like today is the AI, in your vehicle it switches off your vehicle i.e. one cannot start it because of a flashing detector, for safety reasons. This happened to my ntv650 Honda, I disturbed the black-box and it switched off the fuel pump “for safety reasons” and it cost a lot of money for someone who has the electronic equipment to reset the box to regain functionality. This also happened to my laptop of 10 years where the bios password is activated and one cannot get into your laptop with out re-setting the bios password, which is a just a shorting out on the password chip some where on the motherboard. jay

 

[Its been a long time]

In my apocalypse now mode, I thought having a spare set of new, points, condenser, coils, leads, spark-plugs, etc., I would survive the horrors of existence within a dead world because it so cheap to have these things and carry all that around with me.



Like Mr Adams in a video of his on YouTube, I recently watched. where he swapped out an ignition coil by the side of the road, taping it to the side panel, on his moto guzzi elderado. Or tom cruise in the film war of the worlds. Where a “simple minded mechanic” says: “nothing works everything is dead”, tom cruise replies “try changing the solenoids”. Of course it works and he is the only one in the world who has a working vehicle because tom cruise is a “know it all” Sycilo.



So is it better to have the mechanical system or electronics? I swapped it out 20 years ago and have had no trouble (at least not electrical) up to present. I changed, all at the same time: the battery, boyerbranson electronic box, and the recommended coils, new leads ngk caps and plugs.



Psychologically, is it the cost difference, or the mechanical system is easier to understand than a electronic box. In the apocalyptic theme why not have a second electronic box under your seat to swap out, so buy two (I have not lol).



What I don’t like today is the AI, in your vehicle it switches off your vehicle i.e. one cannot start it because of a flashing detector, for safety reasons. This happened to my ntv650 Honda, I disturbed the black-box and it switched off the fuel pump “for safety reasons” and it cost a lot of money for someone who has the electronic equipment to reset the box to regain functionality. This also happened to my laptop of 10 years where the bios password is activated and one cannot get into your laptop with out re-setting the bios password, which is a just a shorting out on the password chip some where on the motherboard. jay

In the final analysis, in 51 years I have had -

OEM electronic ignition failures - none

Points ignition failures - none

Aftermarket ignition failures - two

Plus -

One cracked plug cap, limped home on one cylinder and changed it.

One oil leak on the distributor of a Guzzi. Fixed with a gasket cut from an envelope and timing set with a cigarette paper. And off I went again.

And that's my experience to date.

 

[JOHNDADDY]

Points and condenser all the way.
Carry an extra each if you're worried and you are good to go.
I've never lost a set of points on the road, changed them out as
needed while doing maintenance. I get years out of a pair of points.
Condensers are a different story, engine breaking up spit sputter stop.
Bike runs like it's on a weak battery, or can just quit.
More often for me it seems bike won't start, or restart while out on a run.
That's an easy tell, warm engine it was just running and now won't start,.
Standard check, spark? Battery?
no fuses so that's not it, Condenser, that's a 15 min job. Broomm up and running.
They're fairly cheap so I keep extras at home and on the bike.
As far as adjusting points and timing it's like every thing else.
The more you do it the easier it gets.

 

[drgonzo]

Is there something more reliable than points?

 

[nj1639]

The stock points system for Apocalypse Now mode, stock TCI for plug and play.

In the event of a global electronic shutdown I don't think I'd want to be a noisy target for starving hordes.
I bugged out 32 years ago and actually know most my neighbors in a mile plus radius ......I ain't goin' anywheres 'cept mebbe a hike to the Ohio to fish......lol.