Electric Vehicles, Hybrids...Battery tech... Land Air and Sea. Let's See 'em.

[650Skull]

@Jim you are 100% correct that EVs are the future. The thing is they are the future not today.

Without doing and working on the future today, then today will never work towards the future.........Everything done in increments work towards that change.

Stating its a waste of time, it is not economic or it crates more pollution at present, only inhibits the change that is required to make all those things it work in the future..........A short time loss will be offset by the bigger change, the faster the change the shorter time loss becomes negligible........

. Some of the charging stations in place now use diesel powered generators that burn more fuel to charge the vehicle than the same amount of fuel would power the vehicle even farther.

In these situations they are a stop gap measure between Charging stations, to get the car to the next EV charging station............so the loss is absorbed by the overall distance the car travels, Just makes ita little less efficent overall, but not when campared to a combustion engine Vehicle. If the case is, the EV can only be charged by a Diesel generator then the argument would be valid............

Catch 22............If we don't make EV's there will never be the demand for the infrastructure to cater for them so it will never be built.

If we build EV's, the infrastructure needed to power them will always lag behind till it doesn't, because the demand for the Infrastructure is driven by the amount of EV's produced...............

Kevin Costner proved it......................

 

[Jim]

Kevin Costner proved it......................

 

[GLJ]

Still scratchin' my head over the "not today" comment though.

Because batterys, battery recharging and battery recharging connectors have no standard or de-facto industry standard.

 

[BluzPlayer]

Jim,
Your graph says that if the EVs are being powered by fossil fuels that it would take over 5 years for before the EVs carbon footprint become equal to ICE vehicles. Until then they are dirtier than an ICE powered vehicle. After that point they become the cleaner option.
That means that the batteries in the EVs would have to last for 5 years as a start. It would also mean that those that choose to go buy a new EV before that 5 year period are in constant deficit compared to an ICE vehicles carbon footprint. Of course if the grid itself is generated from clean power that number swings deeply the opposite way and then becomes more plausible.
As I said, the cart is before the horse and for most just as your graph says the EVs are dirtier.
At least for the near future.

 

[GLJ]

If I buy a EV today what guarantees do I have that I can replace the battery at a reasonable price?
Will my charger work on the next EV?
Those and a few other things need to be worked out before EVs become mainstream. Sorry the industry standards and infrastructural is not there yet.
They will be in time.
@Jim Got to ask have you looked at seriously buying a EV yet?

 

[650Skull]

t. Of course if the grid itself is generated from clean power that number swings deeply the opposite way and then becomes more plausible.

EV's are now being used to power house holds in peak power Times to take the load off the grid..........Recharge during the night in off peak times...............The efficency of the EV increases.

 

[Jim]

Jim,
Your graph says that if the EVs are being powered by fossil fuels that it would take over 5 years for before the EVs carbon footprint become equal to ICE vehicles. Until then they are dirtier than an ICE powered vehicle. After that point they become the cleaner option.
That means that the batteries in the EVs would have to last for 5 years as a start. It would also mean that those that choose to go buy a new EV before that 5 year period are in constant deficit compared to an ICE vehicles carbon footprint. Of course if the grid itself is generated from clean power that number swings deeply the opposite way and then becomes more plausible.
As I said, the cart is before the horse and for most just as your graph says the EVs are dirtier.
At least for the near future.

 

[Jim]

If I buy a EV today what guarantees do I have that I can replace the battery at a reasonable price?
Will my charger work on the next EV?
Those and a few other things need to be worked out before EVs become mainstream. Sorry the industry standards and infrastructural is not there yet.
They will be in time.
@Jim Got to ask have you looked at seriously buying a EV yet?

You're preachin' to the choir Greg... we all have those questions.
Funny, I get the impression you think that I believe EV's are mainstream. They're not... and I've never though or said they were. Why do I get the impression you're telling me I'm wrong.... over a position I don't hold?

 

[Jim]

Jim,
Your graph says that if the EVs are being powered by fossil fuels that it would take over 5 years for before the EVs carbon footprint become equal to ICE vehicles. Until then they are dirtier than an ICE powered vehicle. After that point they become the cleaner option.
That means that the batteries in the EVs would have to last for 5 years as a start. It would also mean that those that choose to go buy a new EV before that 5 year period are in constant deficit compared to an ICE vehicles carbon footprint. Of course if the grid itself is generated from clean power that number swings deeply the opposite way and then becomes more plausible.
As I said, the cart is before the horse and for most just as your graph says the EVs are dirtier.
At least for the near future.

OK... let's try this again. There's 3 examples in the graph. Hydro (which means renewables), coal and a mix of the two.
Lets start with hydro.... it's cleaner than an ICE in slightly under 6 months.
The mix.... cleaner at about the 1 yr mark
Using "just" coal takes the longest at about 5 yrs. That's supposed to represent the worst case scenario.
The better metric would be the mix, not the worst case, no?

 

[BluzPlayer]

Well it would appear to be correct that the mix would be the better metric at first glance.
And if things were actually a bit more equal production wise it would be.
Unfortunately clean energy only accounts for about 20% of the electricity produced in the US.
That means 80% leans on the dirty side of the equation. 4 times as much. Seems to me that would heavily skew the numbers down the the line. So instead of 5 years maybe it takes 4. Who knows. One's personal "footprint" will depend on where one lives and how the energy is created on their grid. Overall without the infrastructure in place the scale leans heavily toward the dirty end of the scale overall nationally.
All EV manufacturers in the US do warranty the battery for 8 years or 100,000 miles which is promising should the battery actually hold up to half that. If not the break even point is pushed even farther back. Some manufacturers require the battery to be dead for replacement, others such as Tesla, BMW and others cover the battery if it falls to 70%.
The repid charging stations have a detrimental effect on the present battery technology and can severely shorten the lifespan. Charging outside the recommended "load" is also detrimental.
The loss of battery shortens your already too short distance capabilities. Again in order to see real "savings" the owner would need to keep the car instead of trading it in as the battery degraded. The trade in for new car every 2,3 or 4 years group isn't going to help the cause at all. I don't see a great percentage "riding the storm out" until failure once the battery starts diminishing reducing their ability to travel even more.
Fireworks were great tonight.
Great to be in the land of the free where we can agree to disagree.
I'm going to leave it there and let you guys continue bringing out new discoveries.

 

[Jim]

"Solid-state batteries differ from the lithium-ion batteries currently used in EVs in that they replace the liquid electrolyte with a solid layer between the anode and cathode. It's an attractive technology for multiple reasons: Solid-state cells should have a higher energy density, they should be able to charge more quickly, and they should be safer, as they're nonflammable (which should further reduce the pack density and weight, as it will need less-robust protection).

It's one of those technologies that to a very casual observer is perennially five years away, but in Europe there are already operational Mercedes-Benz eCitaro buses with solid-state packs."
Link.

 

[kshansen]

Only had one cup of coffee so far, but I'm thinking that the more EV's there are the more impetuses there will be for those who have ideas of new technology to work on their ideas to improve those technologies.

I have to think back to when I got my first computer that ran on Windows 3.0, still have the floppies with that program, was hard to imagine that you could send text messages to someone the other side of the world in only a few minutes using dial-up. Heck back then even the communicators used on Star Trek did not even have video, only voice. If you can get something to the point someone can make a profit from developing a technology change can come very fast.

 

[jetmechmarty]

I’m keeping my horse!

The photo is from the manure crisis of 1894.

 

[kshansen]

View attachment 218134

I’m keeping my horse!

The photo is from the manure crisis of 1894.

Another time I'm glad those people back in the 1950's never figured out how to develop "smell-i-vison"! That is one technology I'm glad has not been developed!

 

[Mailman]

Yesterday I looked up a whole bunch of statistics from various sites, mostly government transportation sites. I was curious to see how we use our vehicles. I was going to post all those stats, but I won’t bore you with it, it’s all easy to find if you’re interested. The short version is this, electric vehicles, even at their current state of development would fit the needs of most of us, most of the time. We typically just don’t drive all that far from home. Typical commute is 27 minutes or less, typical day for most people is much less than 75 miles all in.
of course I know there are those who travel much more than that and I also realize that recreational travel is not included. But the majority of our needs is just short, back and forth hops to work and to stores and restaurants and such. And as for charging stations, 90% of our needs could be handled by home chargers.
For me and , I think a lot of others, I’m not turned off by electric vehicles, I just cant justify the cost, and I would add the potential worry about battery life. If I could, I would’ve bought a Zero motorcycle 10 years ago to handle my commute to work.
Here’s a YouTube video about a guy who bought a 5 year old Zero motorcycle to see what it is still capable of.
If you can put up with the guys personality it’s rather interesting. The bike proves to be still capable.

 

[kshansen]

But the majority of our needs is just short, back and forth hops to work and to stores and restaurants and such. And as for charging stations, 90% of our needs could be handled by home chargers.

Back about 20 years ago I had thought about the idea of converting my XS650 ride to work sidecar outfit to electric.

See, I had the advantage of a round trip commute of under five miles. The only thing that at that time I could not figure out was how to control the speed. I think I should have tried finding someone who worked on electric golf carts, not sure if they are just on/off or have variable speed control. I bet if I could have found a simple solution to that I could have been able to use good old fashioned lead acid truck batteries and just plug it in at night, or cheat and use one of the block-heater cords at the shop during the day.

I suppose I could have just used a series-parallel switch to have two speeds, 12 volt for slow, 24 volt for fast and then a simple relay between batteries and electric motor to turn power on and off as needed.

 

[gggGary]

rut roh!
https://www.advrider.com/goodbye-ice/

 

[madmax-im]

Yaeh cram it down their throats...Eventually they'll end the availability of gasoline to existing ICE vehicles... I hope we here in the USA are many more years away from the europeons...except for the californicators but even there people will resist the change..Car culture in Cally is strong and many folks out there are not tree huggers..so it remains to be seen if we follow suit...

 

[GLJ]

rut roh!
https://www.advrider.com/goodbye-ice/

For me I could care less when they outlaw/ban ICE vehicles. I have no intention to ever buy a new ICE bike. I may buy 1 more new truck, if I do it will be in the next few years. If a EV makes sense I will not rule it out. What worries me more is will gas be available at a affordable price or even available.

 

[650Skull]

Well it would appear to be correct that the mix would be the better metric at first glance.
And if things were actually a bit more equal production wise it would be.
Unfortunately clean energy only accounts for about 20% of the electricity produced in the US.
That means 80% leans on the dirty side of the equation. 4 times as much. Seems to me that would heavily skew the numbers down the the line. So instead of 5 years maybe it takes 4. Who knows. One's personal "footprint" will depend on where one lives and how the energy is created on their grid. Overall without the infrastructure in place the scale leans heavily toward the dirty end of the scale overall nationally.
All EV manufacturers in the US do warranty the battery for 8 years or 100,000 miles which is promising should the battery actually hold up to half that. If not the break even point is pushed even farther back. Some manufacturers require the battery to be dead for replacement, others such as Tesla, BMW and others cover the battery if it falls to 70%.
The repid charging stations have a detrimental effect on the present battery technology and can severely shorten the lifespan. Charging outside the recommended "load" is also detrimental.
The loss of battery shortens your already too short distance capabilities. Again in order to see real "savings" the owner would need to keep the car instead of trading it in as the battery degraded. The trade in for new car every 2,3 or 4 years group isn't going to help the cause at all. I don't see a great percentage "riding the storm out" until failure once the battery starts diminishing reducing their ability to travel even more.
Fireworks were great tonight.
Great to be in the land of the free where we can agree to disagree.
I'm going to leave it there and let you guys continue bringing out new discoveries.

"Great to be in the land of the free where we can agree to disagree.
I'm going to leave it there and let you guys continue bringing out new discoveries."

I don't think you have a monopoly on living in a land of the free...........

Here are some links and information, just the first page of a search with information to answer a lot of questions and update some statements.

1; https://www.compare.com/electric-cars/guides/how-long-do-electric-cars-last
.....1a; https://www.compare.com/electric-cars/guides/maintenance-and-repair-costs

2; https://www.lifewire.com/do-evs-last-as-long-as-gasoline-cars-5202392
To help encourage confidence in EVs, federal rules now require automakers to cover major components, like the battery and electric motor, for eight years or 100,000 miles, while California extends that to 10 years or 150,000 miles. Some EV automakers even offer a lifetime guarantee, something practically unheard of in conventional vehicle warranties.

3; https://www.myeva.org/blog/monthly-myth-your-battery-must-be-replaced-in-5-to-10-years
Another favorite anti-EV argument is that recycling Li-ion batteries is difficult, expensive or even flat-out impossible. However that is not the case. Recycling International reports that some 97,000 tons of Li-ion batteries were recycled in 2018, and over 1 GWh worth are currently serving in second-life applications.

4; https://www.pcmag.com/news/ev-batteries-101-degradation-lifespan-warranties-and-more

The Cost of an EV compared to Conventional combustion engine cars

1; https://thenetzeroreport.com/e-v/el...icles-an-analysis-of-total-cost-of-ownership/

From South Africa........March 2022
https://combustion-net.com/electric...stion-engine-a-cost-per-kilometer-comparison/