Electric Vehicles, Hybrids...Battery tech... Land Air and Sea. Let's See 'em.

Is the internal combustion engine doomed to history

  • Yes

    Votes: 10 25.6%

  • No

    Votes: 21 53.8%

  • Not sure

    Votes: 5 12.8%

  • Don't care

    Votes: 2 5.1%

  • ...er... what was the question again?

    Votes: 1 2.6%
  • Total voters
    39
Oddly enough, two of the largest so called "oil states" are leading the charge. Texas and Oklahoma are well on their way to being EV friendly.



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MaxPete said:
slower in rural North America where people really need big trucks (even though few of them ever haul anything heaver than a case of beer....)
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Hey when the weather is bad I carry a 30 pack in my truck. When the weather is ok it gets strapped on the back of my XS2. :)
 
Interesting on the charging points map is it must be a bit out of date. This is because just this afternoon wife when to grocery store and commented on the fact that there were at least two charging stations in the lot there. They do not show on the map that Jim posted a link to just a while ago. Also that map could use some improvements to make it easier to use, but guess it's just a start.

I don't expect internal combustion cars to disappear in a couple years but for probably 90+% of the driving we do a car with a 150 to 200 mile range on it would be more than adequate.
 
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My :twocents: again.
I think EV's are a stop gap measure. Hydrogen powered ICEs is the real future. Right now it's all about EV's, down the road it will change.
I know with technology advancements creating electricity and battery storage will improve. But there will always be the problem of getting the precious metals needed for the batterys and their disposal. Plus if creating energy with fossil fuels what have you really gained?
Now when I say future and down the road I'm talking 20+ years.
As I have always said the future will be interesting. I hope to live long enough to see the final solution.
 
Jim said:
Oddly enough, two of the largest so called "oil states" are leading the charge. Texas and Oklahoma are well on their way to being EV friendly.



View attachment 230413
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Yup - it’s the same here in Canada with Alberta becoming an alternate energy hub - BIG focus on hydrogen.

On the issue of hydrogen, I agree GLJ - but I think that it’s more likely that H2 will be used in fuel cells than IC engines. FCEVs are much more efficient and have fewer moving parts.

In the meantime, another big $1B+ battery facility was announced today for Sorel Quebec. That’s more than $15B so far this year.

Pete
 
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FWIW, my electricity is provided by natural gas. 16% of electricity in Mississippi comes from nuclear and another 7% from coal. 0.5% is green energy. I believe we’ll be on natural gas for decades. Gasoline filling stations are still going up around here.
 
Sorry - hit send too fast. The key thing to understand about hydrogen (H2 for short) is that it can be used literally anywhere that hydrocarbon fuels (coal, oil or natural gas) are presently used:
  • cars
  • trucks,
  • ships
  • trains
  • steel mills
  • electrical powerplants
  • home and large building heating.
The best thing about hydrogen is that when you combust it in air, all you get is water vapour - in effect, rain clouds. There is no other direct pollution - and so a hydrogen fueled vehicle is truly green, at least while it is being used (however, the energy and resources required to build the car may not be "green" processes).

The principal downsides of hydrogen are that it:
  • is a very small molecule (H2 gas consists of just two of the smallest atoms in nature) - so it can leak through most rubber, plastic and even thin aluminium shells;
  • does not occur in H2 form in nature, except under very high pressure or at very low temperatures
  • requires a fair bit of energy to "create" (i.e. to fuse the two hydrogen atoms together to form H2 gas).
There are several ways of producing H2 gas using various hydrocarbon source materials and processes. Here is a website: hydrogen production methods. The other way to look at H2 production is "how environmentally friendly is the process" - and the various forms are denoted by "colours" (Hydrogen_Colours) - once again, depending on the overall emissions from the production process. Making truly "green" hydrogen is not easy and requires a very substantial investment in renewable energy - like solar, wind or hydroelectric power to produce the electricity to operate a large electrolysis plant.

In my view, one of the best ways to produce H2 on an industrial scale is via electrolysis using nuclear power as the electricity source. Most of the other production methods are either not "clean", or they are not practical on an industrial scale because of factors such as lack of wind at times or that fact that the sun doesn't shine at night. Some people advocate large-scale battery storage, but batteries are really pretty nasty from an environmental standpoint. The fact is that storing energy has always been a very tough technical and economic problem.

Several years ago I wrote a consulting report for Toyota (attached) on the topic of hydrogen use in the future economy and I am pleased to report that many of the ideas in the paper are now coming to pass - including H2 powered steel mills, H2 fueled ships, trains, and heavy trucks fleets etc. - so pretty cool indeed. Hydrogen fueled aircraft are a much more challenging proposition because to carry any significant amount of hydrogen requires very high pressure tanks or very cold (cryogenic) storage - both of which are bulky and heavy technologies. For energy density (energy/unit volume or energy/unit weight) it is still pretty hard to beat liquid fuels. But, on vehicles such as trucks, ships and trains, etc., space and weight aren't such a big concern.

Cheers,

Pete
 

Attachments

  • H2_Paper _screen-PRFD.pdf
    1.6 MB · Views: 79
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jetmechmarty said:
FWIW, my electricity is provided by natural gas. 16% of electricity in Mississippi comes from nuclear and another 7% from coal. 0.5% is green energy. I believe we’ll be on natural gas for decades. Gasoline filling stations are still going up around here.
Click to expand...

Yes - I concur Marty. The investments required to really change the economy over to clean energy are in the trillions of dollars and will take decades....

....but of course, every journey begins with a single step.
 
MaxPete said:
Sorry - hit send too fast. The key thing to understand about hydrogen (H2 for short) is that it can be used literally anywhere that hydrocarbon fuelS (coal, oil or natural gas) are presently used:
  • cars
  • trucks,
  • ships
  • trains
  • steel mills
  • electrical powerplants
  • home and large building heating.
The best thing about hydrogen is that when you combust it in air, all you get is water vapour - in effect, rain clouds. There is no other direct pollution - and so a hydrogen fueled vehicle is truly green, at least while it is being used (however, the energy and resources required to build the car may not be "green" processes).

The principal downsides of hydrogen are that it:
  • is a very small molecule (H2 gas consists of just two of the smallest atoms in nature) - so it can leak through most rubber, plastic and even thin aluminium shells;
  • does not occur in H2 form in nature, except under very high pressure or at very low temperatures
  • requires a fair bit of energy to "create" (i.e. to fuse the two hydrogen atoms together to form H2 gas).
There are several ways of producing H2 gas using various hydrocarbon source materials and processes. Here is a website: hydrogen production methods. The other way to look at H2 production is "how environmentally friendly is the process" - and the various forms are denoted by "colours" (Hydrogen_Colours) - once again, depending on the overall emissions from the production process. Making truly "green" hydrogen is not easy and requires a very substantial investment in renewable energy - like solar, wind or hydroelectric power to produce the electricity to operate a large electrolysis plant.

In my view, one of the best ways to produce H2 on an industrial scale is via electrolysis using nuclear power as the electricity source. Most of the other production methods are either not "clean", or they are not practical on an industrial scale because of factors such as lack of wind at times or that fact that the sun doesn't shine at night. Some people advocate large-scale battery storage, but batteries are really pretty nasty from an environmental standpoint. The fact is that storing energy has always been a very tough technical and economic problem.

Several years ago I wrote a consulting report for Toyota (attached) on the topic of hydrogen use in the future economy and I am pleased to report that many of the ideas in the paper are now coming to pass - including H2 powered steel mills, H2 fueled ships, trains, and heavy trucks fleets etc. - so pretty cool indeed. Hydrogen fueled aircraft are a much more challenging proposition because to carry any significant amount of hydrogen requires very high pressure tanks or very cold (cryogenic) storage - both of which are bulky and heavy technologies. For energy density (energy/unit volume or energy/unit weight) it is still pretty hard to beat liquid fuels. But, on vehicles such as trucks, ships and trains, etc., space and weight aren't such a big concern.

Cheers,

Pete
Click to expand...

That was all very interesting Pete! Thanks for the input. I had always thought Hydrogen powered cars would be the wave of the future until about a decade ago.
4749FB09-1094-4C2F-AFAC-CCEDDD7A9EA8.jpeg
I found an interesting article here, that gives a layman’s explanation of how the two technologies work and the pros and cons of each.

https://elements.visualcapitalist.com/visualized-battery-vs-hydrogen-fuel-cell/

I thought this was an interesting little nugget of information from the above article,

“According to the U.S. Department of Energy, there are just 48 hydrogen stations across the entire country. 47 are located in California, and 1 is located in Hawaii.

On the contrary, BEVs have 49,210 charging stations nationwide, and can also be charged at home. This number is sure to grow, as the Biden administration has allocated $5 billion for states to expand their charging networks.”
 
Yup - EVs are coming down in price and most OEMs have a goal of price-parity (Price_Parity EV<>ICE) with IC engine cars by....2025-2030 or so.

However, lower production volume vehicles such as motorcycles, snowmobiles, aircraft etc. will take significantly longer IMO. That is why the agreement to standardize battery formats among the J-4 bike OEMs (Honda, Kawasaki, Suzuki and Yamaha) is such a big deal. It will bring economies of scale to the motorcycle sector so much faster than the normal market forces would ever do. There are actually a couple of distinct agreements at present:

1) among the J4 companies: J4 battery agreement

2) among Honda, Yamaha, KTM and Piaggio: HYKP agreement

....and there will be more coming soon I am sure.

Now, if only the car companies would come to the same sort of agreement - then EVs would increase even faster than they are now. Having said that, the charging infrastructure is still a key limiting factor.

Pete
 
A friend of mine just drove a Tesla from Toronto to Los Angeles. The car directed him from charging station to charging station all the way. 1 hour charge for a 2 hour drive. I talked to him in route. It sounded like misery to me. I spoke with him yesterday. He’s making a return in a Cadillac Escalade. Big gasoline tank.
Primary EV limitation right now.
 
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